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WAY past time for some changes...but what to do?
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 Group admin 
Before commenting, gang. Please give me a little time here to put my thoughts together. My goal is to see if we can come together with some ideas on how to proceed from here on MOCpages, particularly in the groups...

This will probably entail some changes in leadership with this group (at least myself, as it's been a long time since I've been able to attend to the group as needed). And we'll see what else comes from the conversations. Nothing may come of it, or we may find some answers to the current problems...at bare minimum I figured it was worth a shot.

I'll post a few thoughts here shortly as I mull over things and then invite everyone to express their own thoughts and ideas.
Permalink
| May 20, 2017, 10:45 am
 Group admin 
Alrighty thenÖ

Some disclaimers of sorts:
1) To begin with, all of my comments here are made with the assumption that those reading them are somewhat familiar with MOCpages, its history, its members, and this group in particular.
2) Also, as I mentioned above, this could get extremely complicated, or maybe no one will chime in, I just donít know. It may not work at all. So just bear that in mind.
3) Since Iím instigating this, Iím hoping to be involved in any discussions and help things move along. But, life could throw me a curveball and I disappear. Donít want that to happen, but just saying itís possible. Now, with that being said...

Andros:
Let me first start by joining in the chorus of appreciation for Andros and everything heís done to try to assist people here in the group in my absence. And others have stepped in as well to try to address issues, calm the storms, and help out. Iím enormously grateful for their help and above allÖtheir patience, as the drama and the lack of response from the top (myself, Sean, and Chris) has to have been frustrating.

Leadership roles:
I donít want to speak on behalf of Chris or Sean. I donít think itís fair to put words into their mouths (although Iím very confident theyíre in a similar situation). But for my part, Iíve been completely inundated with work and life outside of the Lego world for a long time now, and I donít see that changing any time soon. I think itís probably well past the time to remove myself as Admin from the Help group, and Iíll be bringing that up with Sean soon (assuming I can get a hold of him). Andros has expressed interest in stepping back, as well, and if thatís the case, weíll definitely need some dedicated souls to take on positions of leadership. Any changes would need to be agreed upon by Sean, but I donít see how it would hurt to consider some options right now. Iíd welcome memberís thoughts. Iíve already briefly discussed this with Andros, by the way.

Sean:
I havenít spoken with him directly in ages, but I follow him on FB and have never seen a time when heís been busier. I canít blame him for needing to put MOCpages on the backburner. At this point, I think itís time to restate our most frequent disclaimer; this is a free site, and we all need to remember that any time we have a grievance with it. NeverthelessÖSeanís absence is obviously causing problems for us these days. Heís the only one that can currently tackle any functional problems such as the counter issue, spamming, group hacks, lagging technology, questions about rule enforcement, etc. I honestly donít know what, if anything, can be done about this given Seanís busy life, but Iím open to hearing peopleís thoughts on it. And Sean, if you happen to read this (as unlikely as it is), Iíd greatly welcome your input!

So, Iíll start there and just see where this goes. I know weíve discussed these things ad nauseam in other threads, but perhaps another attempt at discussion here will help us sort through the problems, and Iím willing to give it another go for anyone else is wants to pow-wow about itÖ

Permalink
| May 20, 2017, 12:16 pm
 Group admin 
Should we have some additional Mods or Admins in this group? If so, what qualities would they need to posses?


Permalink
| May 20, 2017, 12:30 pm
 Group admin 
Is there anything we can do to convince Sean to give this site a bit of TLC?
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| May 20, 2017, 12:31 pm
 Group admin 
In as few words as possible, what are the problems that MOCpages is experiencing?
Permalink
| May 20, 2017, 12:33 pm
Quoting Mark Kelso
Should we have some additional Mods or Admins in this group? If so, what qualities would they need to posses?


I think that is a good idea, considering the overall busyness of our present Mods and Admins. They should have a good understanding of MocPages and its rules, and be good at working with people. Ideally they shouldn't be super busy with other things.
Permalink
| May 20, 2017, 12:36 pm
Quoting Mark Kelso
Should we have some additional Mods or Admins in this group? If so, what qualities would they need to posses?



First of all, thanks for doing this Mark! I just put together a short list of people that I'd like to see in leadership here.

1. Doug Hughes-a solid person who doesn't get flustered easily. I think he could handle all the craziness this group gets.

http://www.moc-pages.com/home.php/1866

MCLegoboy!-already does A LOT for this group, helping to answer questions, etc.

http://www.moc-pages.com/home.php/43671

Jeremy McCreary-pretty HTML savvy, and reasonably active.

http://www.moc-pages.com/home.php/99234

Well, that's my thoughts!



Permalink
| May 20, 2017, 1:08 pm
Obviously, there are the vulnerabilities. I think more homepage design options would be cool (background colors, etc.), but problem-wise, I'd say there's not too much other than that that has been mentioned, and the uploader issues. Thank you, Kelso for coming to check this out. May I say that your mechs have inspired me to build my own that I haven't posted yet.
Permalink
| May 20, 2017, 1:09 pm
Woot woot! Awesome to see you active again Mark!

I agree with everything Jonathan said, all of those people would be great for staff.
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| May 20, 2017, 1:13 pm
Quoting Sir Flexalot
Obviously, there are the vulnerabilities. I think more homepage design options would be cool (background colors, etc.), but problem-wise, I'd say there's not too much other than that that has been mentioned, and the uploader issues. Thank you, Kelso for coming to check this out. May I say that your mechs have inspired me to build my own that I haven't posted yet.

If we're talking updates, I'd love a new, better way to add your creations to groups. Some way to select all the groups you want, and add it all at once. Cause right now it takes me a good 20-30 minutes to add my creations to all my groups.
Permalink
| May 20, 2017, 1:15 pm
Quoting Mark Kelso
Is there anything we can do to convince Sean to give this site a bit of TLC?

Threatening. Or bribery. :P jk.
I'd say you ask him to pick someone to run it for him, someone who can run a site, and be active and interact with the community.
Permalink
| May 20, 2017, 1:19 pm
My brother in law is great with coding websites, but he's been super busy with work recently, so I'm not sure when/if he'd have time to work on this. Also, I don't think he'd do it for free.
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| May 20, 2017, 1:22 pm
 Group moderator 
For the sake of sanity, can we not have posts like "yas" please? I'm going to start deleting posts that add nothing to the conversation.

Got it.

Can I also add my vote for the two Davids, Alexander and Roberts. They are both stand up guys who run their own groups with humour and diplomacy. I think they would be excellent choices for admin roles.

Chris Roach is also a guy I'd trust. He runs his own website so he has the experience, and can handle technical queries.
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| May 20, 2017, 1:32 pm
 Group admin 
Thanks for chiming in, guys. Keep it coming.

I'll certainly try to have a look at any name someone recommends for Mod or Admin (ones with any degree of legitimacy, at any rate). I can't imagine that Sean would know who would be a good choice and who wouldn't, and he'll need to rely on me and perhaps Chris, and Andros for recommendations. Keep in mind, that's IF he even would be willing to go for some changes in the guard.

I think as far as changes to the site are concerned, if they were to happen (another HUGE "if" right there), they would in all probability be patches. The likelihood of new features or major updates is so small that it's likely not even worth discussing. So, right now I'm just trying to nail down very specific issues that I could turn over to Sean in a single email - as a concise list - that need addressing. For example, if I were to put together a list right now off the top of my head, it would be...

spamming of likes
group hacks
problems with the like and smiley counters
loader difficulties

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| May 20, 2017, 2:20 pm
 Group admin 
Also, when it comes to making any fixes or adjustments, I have to assume that he'll want his guy (guys?) to do it. While people that we know who might volunteer their time is a nice sentiment, I don't think it's realistic to imagine Sean utilizing someone he doesn't know and work with personally.

When I started on MOCPages, he would actually tackle some of the glitches himself. Later, when we lost images and had major server issues, he would always indicate in communications with me that he had others who would do the work. I'm confident that would be the case with any current problems.
Permalink
| May 20, 2017, 2:24 pm
Quoting Mark Kelso

Well shoot. That pretty much crosses off everything I was going to suggest. Oh well, I'll suggest what ever else comes to mind that isn't a major change.
Permalink
| May 20, 2017, 2:25 pm
This is great! Thanks for coming back Mark, and thanks for opening this long-disused issue up for suggestions. Most people I would suggest have already been suggested, all the ones listed would make great leaders of MP.

As for suggestions on the site itself... I have nothing, not really. I had a bunch of ideas (instant messaging service, better activity bar, easier HTML, etc...) but all those would be "major" changes to the MP site.

But another idea I had, that isn't exactly about the site or it's issue, is that the MP staff could open up a Patreon: https://www.patreon.com
It would solve to money-issue and perhaps open up the possibility of new features.
As for things the staff could give back to the people who donate, perhaps early access to experimental features (if we get to that point), build critiquing by the MP staff, things like that.
Permalink
| May 20, 2017, 2:32 pm
 Group admin 
I know...

The dream for many of us would be a completely new MOCpages, with updated features and versatility, better picture quality, etc. If that happened you'd see a spike in membership to rival the great Serengeti migration! But, I'm afraid such a change is highly improbable, to put it mildly.

Right now what I'm hoping to do is just find a way to make what we've got work a bit better: People in the Help Group that can attend to problems quickly and consistently, with knowledge, firmness, and civility. Some way of getting Sean to either respond when there are glitches or necessary tweeks, or outsource to someone he trusts who can tackle it when he doesn't have the time.
Permalink
| May 20, 2017, 2:49 pm
Quoting Jonathan Demers

First of all, thanks for doing this Mark! I just put together a short list of people that I'd like to see in leadership here.

1. Doug Hughes-a solid person who doesn't get flustered easily. I think he could handle all the craziness this group gets.

http://www.moc-pages.com/home.php/1866

MCLegoboy!-already does A LOT for this group, helping to answer questions, etc.

http://www.moc-pages.com/home.php/43671

Jeremy McCreary-pretty HTML savvy, and reasonably active.

http://www.moc-pages.com/home.php/99234

Well, that's my thoughts!



i agree with all the people you suggested! they would all be great! the is one other guy i would like to point out that could/would be good: Wertman8, he is a wee bit crazy here and there, but when things get insane, he keeps a level head
Permalink
| May 20, 2017, 3:21 pm
When it comes to issues with the site itself, the main problems have already been mentioned. However, there are a couple of minor ones too that perhaps at least deserve a mention:

The first like-thing of course, and then there is also a problem with searching twice for the same name when wanting to invite people to groups. A second search for a name will result in an error message.

When it comes to new admins/mods for the site, i have no suggestions but would just like to say that they need to be level headed enough to be able to handle discussions like the recent Bricks Noir-one just as soberly and accepting as the current staff has.
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| May 20, 2017, 3:52 pm
When choosing one or more new moderators (and potentially administrators), I think there are a few key things to make sure of for each, Some of this may sound a bit pedantic but it's necessary when considering moderators (personal experience speaking here).

1. That the person can work with other staff effectively. That means communication, and cordial working relationships.

2. That the person does not get riled easily or respond in tit-for-tat behavior. In short, that they can behave in an objective and reasonable manner even under duress.

3. That the person is at least 21 years of age (trust me on this folks, we have some great kids, but this needs to be an adult)

4. That the person has a long standing and stable relationship with the community. (i.e. is a regular presence, not someone who flits in and out as they see fit, and is familiar with the ins and outs of the 'pages.) [This eliminates me because I can disappear for months at a time due to work.]

5. That the person WANTS to do it. This is a labor of love. Do not foist this off on people who are not comfortable with the job.

There are still some fine folks out here on the 'pages who likely meet the first three requirements without question. The question I have in terms of new moderators, is who can meet the fourth and fifth criteria.

Mark, thank you for coming back to address this. Andros, thank you for doing what you have done as long as you have.
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| May 20, 2017, 4:15 pm
One more thing, my "new from your favorite builders" section on the homepage will sometimes bring up builds that has been moved off to make room for the latest
Permalink
| May 20, 2017, 4:45 pm
Quoting andros tempest
For the sake of sanity, can we not have posts like "yas" please? I'm going to start deleting posts that add nothing to the conversation.

Got it.

Can I also add my vote for the two Davids, Alexander and Roberts. They are both stand up guys who run their own groups with humour and diplomacy. I think they would be excellent choices for admin roles.

Chris Roach is also a guy I'd trust. He runs his own website so he has the experience, and can handle technical queries.

My apologies
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| May 20, 2017, 4:48 pm
Quoting -{ Emperor Neron }- (David.H)
i agree with all the people you suggested! they would all be great! the is one other guy i would like to point out that could/would be good: Wertman8, he is a wee bit crazy here and there, but when things get insane, he keeps a level head

I personally think an AFoL would be better, even tho wertman does keep a level head very well (I mean, hey, he put up with me when I started that arguementearly on in my time here)
Permalink
| May 20, 2017, 4:51 pm
Firstly, thank you Mark for taking the time to do this.

Point one: New Moderators and Admins would be a great help. People who are active frequently, have a good knowledge of the site and are known to be responsible. I would put myself forwards, as I've been on MOCpages since the start of 2009 and I have run The Insurgency, one of the very few constantly active groups, since 2013. However, I feel that due to my own work load, whilst not as hectic as the current Mod's and admin's, and despite the fact I check MOCpages daily, I simply wouldn't have the time.

Point two: When it comes to fixing issues, I think it would be best to focus on one thing at a time. It's all well and good having a list of stuff that needs doing, but as has already been pointed out, Sean himself will have to make the fixes or get his guys to do it, and we also already know that he has very little time, so if we give him just one thing at a time to work on, I think that might work better.

Point three: The Issues themselves. The first one should be the security issue we've all faced recently. If childish hackers can create as much damage and strife as they have done and make long standing, valued members such as Andros want to leave AND get away with it, then no wonder MOCpages is dying.
Issue two should be the uploader and the java issue. This has been an issue for waaaaay too long now and is also killing off the site. The whole point of MOCpages is to upload your creations, so if you can't upload your creations... well. You get the point.
Those are the biggest two issues by far.

As has already been said, yes, we can all wish for a brand new, shiny version of MOCpages, but at this point in time, it's not going to happen. I think the best course of action, as I've said before, recently, is for us to come up with a list of issues that need fixing, and write an open letter to Sean, signed by everybody here who agrees. If we also have a list of those willing to participate in helping in some way, then that will also be the perfect time to let Sean know and offer assistance.

Anyway, that's my two pennies worth.

--Blast--
Permalink
| May 20, 2017, 5:37 pm
 Group moderator 
Quoting Builder Allan
When it comes to issues with the site itself, the main problems have already been mentioned. However, there are a couple of minor ones too that perhaps at least deserve a mention:

The first like-thing of course, and then there is also a problem with searching twice for the same name when wanting to invite people to groups. A second search for a name will result in an error message.

When it comes to new admins/mods for the site, i have no suggestions but would just like to say that they need to be level headed enough to be able to handle discussions like the recent Bricks Noir-one just as soberly and accepting as the current staff has.


With regards to that situation. Whatever changes to the website, we also need a major change in policy regarding the reporting of issues. Specific to rule breaking.

Considering how often reports have degenerated into unproductive fights it is not advisable that these things be open to debate. A more private forum. Would have been better, where such issues could be discussed without the whole website being able to contribute. And where those making the report did not have to do so publically.

I'm not saying do away with a help forum. But for the reporting of sensitive issues, such as offensive material, or bullying, nothing is gained from everyone getting the chance to add their 2cents. It just muddies the water and creates ill feeling.

Plus if the report is invalid, if it is done anonymously, only those making the report need even be aware of it.

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| May 20, 2017, 6:59 pm
Quoting Sir Flexalot
I personally think an AFoL would be better, even tho wertman does keep a level head very well (I mean, hey, he put up with me when I started that arguementearly on in my time here)

...

Werty is an AFOL
Permalink
| May 20, 2017, 9:06 pm
Quoting andros tempest

With regards to that situation. Whatever changes to the website, we also need a major change in policy regarding the reporting of issues. Specific to rule breaking.

Considering how often reports have degenerated into unproductive fights it is not advisable that these things be open to debate. A more private forum. Would have been better, where such issues could be discussed without the whole website being able to contribute. And where those making the report did not have to do so publically.

I'm not saying do away with a help forum. But for the reporting of sensitive issues, such as offensive material, or bullying, nothing is gained from everyone getting the chance to add their 2cents. It just muddies the water and creates ill feeling.

Plus if the report is invalid, if it is done anonymously, only those making the report need even be aware of it.

I certainly agree with you there. Perhaps a direct mail specifically for these types of reports to the admins could be a solution? For example a new official MOCpages email account that both Sean and the new staff all have access to.

It seems that others have already made suggestions about the new mods/admins that will make what i meant a moot point, so never mind what i said about that :-)

A huge thanks to both you and Mark for trying to solve this by the way!
Permalink
| May 21, 2017, 3:08 am
Elaborating on what i meant with the email, it doesn't have to be integrated into the site, it could just be for example a hotmail or google-account :-)
Permalink
| May 21, 2017, 3:11 am
Maybe a MOCpages facebook page? I know there is one, but its never active. A business page where multiple people answer requests could work.
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| May 21, 2017, 4:15 am
 Group moderator 
Speaking of "fixes". I know some members felt during the whole Noirgate thing, that having non family friendly thumbnails visible for filtered content was not ideal. various ideas were put forward, that were not at the time feasible, but should the possibility of a brand new front page come of this, now might be the time to address it properly.

The suggestions fell down to the following (there may be more):

- remove thumbnail for all mature content
- have a seperate section for mature content, which cannot be accessed by kfol and tfol members
- not include mature content in the best of algorythm
- ban adult material from the site

As sean's intent by permitting mature themes was about creativity and self expression, I personally would object to a complete ban. But I do feel the way the website is structured ought to keep kfol and tfol members from viewing them or creating them.


Permalink
| May 21, 2017, 7:10 am
 Group moderator 
Also on the subject of fixes.

The nany filter for comments, should be extended to titles for conversations, groups and mocs. A few trouble makers have frequently used completely innapropriate language for moc and group names to get round any censorship.

It might be easier to identify trolls if their suspect mocs and conversation topics needed approval by a moderator before becoming visible.

The recent spate of vandalism might have been less widespead, if the offensive title changes would have gone to the site admins to approve rather than the group admins.
Permalink
| May 21, 2017, 7:15 am
Quoting andros tempest
Speaking of "fixes". I know some members felt durng the whole Noirgate thing, that having non family friendly thumbnails visible for filtered content was not ideal. various ideas were put forward, that were not at the time feasible, but should the possibility of a brand new front page come of this, now might be the time to address it properly.

The suggestions fell down to the following (there may be more):

- remove thumbnail for all mature content
- have a seperate section for mature content, which cannot be accessed by kfol and tfol members
- not include mature content in the best off algorythm
- ban adult material from the site

As sean's intent by permitting mature themes was about creativity and self expression, I personally would object to a complete ban. But I do feel the way the website is structured ought to keep kfol and tfol members from viewing them or creating them.


I think it should be less strict for TFOLs, like the thumbnail is hidden, but personally I don't understand the hidden title part
Permalink
| May 21, 2017, 7:48 am
Quoting ē Psithur ē
...

Werty is an AFOL

I thought he was 17....
Permalink
| May 21, 2017, 7:49 am
Quoting andros tempest
Speaking of "fixes". I know some members felt durng the whole Noirgate thing, that having non family friendly thumbnails visible for filtered content was not ideal. various ideas were put forward, that were not at the time feasible, but should the possibility of a brand new front page come of this, now might be the time to address it properly.

The suggestions fell down to the following (there may be more):

- remove thumbnail for all mature content
- have a seperate section for mature content, which cannot be accessed by kfol and tfol members
- not include mature content in the best off algorythm
- ban adult material from the site

As sean's intent by permitting mature themes was about creativity and self expression, I personally would object to a complete ban. But I do feel the way the website is structured ought to keep kfol and tfol members from viewing them or creating them.



But many of the older TFOLS would, and did view some of the creations, supporting them, and that is their choice, so I woulndt simply put a ban on KFOLs and TFOLS on certain parts of the site, I'd simply let them, when they make an account, have the option of viewing certain Mocs or not, but they can't change it by a click of a button, (like the current PG system)
Permalink
| May 21, 2017, 7:53 am
Quoting James Douglas

But many of the older TFOLS would, and did view some of the creations, supporting them, and that is their choice, so I woulndt simply put a ban on KFOLs and TFOLS on certain parts of the site, I'd simply let them, when they make an account, have the option of viewing certain Mocs or not, but they can't change it by a click of a button, (like the current PG system)

Yes, I agree with this idea, as not all PG rated creations are as "crazy" (for lack of a better term) as the ones Bricks Noir posts.
Permalink
| May 21, 2017, 8:08 am
Quoting Sir Flexalot
Yeah, that's twu


Remember, don't use language like that here if you want to be taken seriously!
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| May 21, 2017, 8:34 am
Quoting andros tempest
Also on the subject of fixes.

The nany filter for comments, should be extended to titles for conversations, groups and mocs. A few trouble makers have frequently used completely innapropriate language for moc and group names to get round any censorship.

It might be easier to identify trolls if their suspect mocs and conversation topics needed approval by a moderator before becoming visible.

The recent spate of vandalism might have been less widespead, if the offensive title changes would have gone to the site admins to approve rather than the group admins.

This would be a great idea, i absolutely agree it could alleviate some of the problem :-)

Regarding mature content i have a suggestion, but this would involve a major change in the members accounts, plus i'm not sure if it would work.

If there was a place where you would have to give up your age (not visible to others) in the members info on the accounts, you could simply refuse access to mature content for users below a certain age. The problem is that it would be difficult to ensure that a user is giving up his or her actual age :-/

If this idea is unfeasible i would prefer your second option :-)
Permalink
| May 21, 2017, 9:41 am
 Group moderator 
Quoting James Douglas

But many of the older TFOLS would, and did view some of the creations, supporting them, and that is their choice, so I woulndt simply put a ban on KFOLs and TFOLS on certain parts of the site, I'd simply let them, when they make an account, have the option of viewing certain Mocs or not, but they can't change it by a click of a button, (like the current PG system)


Define "older TFOL"? Because technically an 18 year old is not a teen, they are an adult. And many 15. 16 and 17 year olds are mature enough to be trusted to generate and view this kind of contact. What I'm pitching is the parent friendly alternative to the current, occasionally contentious system.

End of the day, we're just pitching ideas. I'm the first to admit some of them are probably not going to happen or even practical. But without as much (relevant) feedback as possible, the changes would not reflect the group as a whole.

Permalink
| May 21, 2017, 10:53 am
 Group moderator 
Quoting Sir Flexalot
*true. Sorry, I'm friends with James Douglas


Flex, with respect, just remember which group your posting in. I've deleted eight comments so far that are just, well, silly. You apologise but then repeat the same behaviour.

I don't want to have to suggest Mark ban you, because your opinion is just as valid as anyone else, but this isn't the place for comments like "yas" or "twu dat".

Please just think before you post, that's all I ask.
Permalink
| May 21, 2017, 10:57 am
Mark, thanks for starting this discussion. I appreciate that you've been following along in spite of being busy with work, and everything you've done for MOCpages over the years has had a tremendous effect on the site. Also, I know Chris is very busy with his new kiddo and likely work as well, so thanks for handling these discussions in his hopefully temporary absence.

I do understand that Sean has his trusted tech guy who handles the site, but unfortunately we've seen very minimal progress on that front. The group hacking issue has been known about for years, and nothing's been done. Spam likes have been an issue for over a decade, and nothing's been done. The last time the uploader was updated was, well, I don't even know when. Before I joined the site some odd 6-8 years ago. The name's been changed to moc-pages, and there's no news on whether this is a temporary change as work's done on mocpages, or a permanent name change. And despite constant news about server improvements, we still crash the site every time there's a moderately large contest (which hasn't happened for at least a year, since everyone just stopped hosting big contests here).

What we also don't know is why Sean's unwilling to let others work on the site - I'm not sure if he has a contract with someone and/or doesn't actually own the code, or if he just doesn't trust letting others work on it. Both are understandable, but it'd be good to know so that we can figure out if it would ever even be possible for others to help out or not.

In the short term, it would be pretty easy to patch up some of the bugs like group hacking - the validation checks are already coded, it's what prevents you from deleting other people's MOCs. So just add that code to editing groups and you're done. Other fixes might be a bit trickier, but shouldn't be too hard. If Sean was willing to give someone access to the codebase, even for a day, groups could be secured that day. He'd just need to provide ftp access to the site's files, and then change the password afterwards if he doesn't want to risk later changes. Or he could even just email someone the site's files, they'd make changes and email them back, and he'd upload them to the site. This isn't as good since it takes more time to iterate, so if it's not 100% right the first time it's a bit of a time consuming process, whereas with ftp if it doesn't work you can just reverse the changes instantly and revise it. But it totally removes the risk of someone damaging the site, since Sean would be the only one actually changing the live site.

Later on, if Sean really wants MOCpages to be popular and cost effective, he'd be looking at some more dramatic changes. I'm pretty confident that the site could be hosted for $20/month if parts were re-coded and it moved to a more effective server technology. I'm using this kind of tech in my sites, and was able to handle 72,000 pageloads in one minute without crashing on a $5/month server. Now, the site was a bit simpler than MOCpages, but on a $20/month server I'm almost certain that there'd be plenty of power for MOCpages' needs. Maybe $20/month is more than Sean's paying now, but when I checked his hosting provider's site (ViaWest) I didn't see any prices listed, which usually means it's pretty expensive.

I think many of us would be happy to contribute in any way possible. I'm very familiar with creating websites using the same language MOCpages uses (PHP), so I'd personally be very willing to volunteer my time coding. Others might not have coding expertise, but could be willing to donate money to help cover server costs or other expenses to keep the site up or improve it. I know I'd donate at least $10 the instant donations were allowed, and more whenever I could afford to.

MOCpages is by far the best site for sharing LEGO creations. The one photo per page format of Flickr doesn't allow for the same storytelling as MOCpages, and the groups here are far better. But that doesn't matter if the site doesn't work, and if there aren't any users. The site needs work. Maybe not a facelift - the design's actually pretty good. But it's not very stable, and every year it becomes harder to use and more prone to security breaches. I don't want to see it reach a point where it's unusable.

Fortunately, MOCpages still gets 200,000-400,000 visits a month. That's a lot of traffic - people want to see MOCpages thrive. But these visitors aren't much use if they can't get the uploader to work, come during a crash, and have their groups hacked. But if things do improve, MOCpages could really take off. With 360,000 visits last month, just imagine how many people would use MOCpages if it was fully functional and active again.

So, I know it's unlikely that Sean will let me, or anyone, access the site's codebase and make adjustments. Though I will still put the offer out there - if he wants, I can do as much or as little as he wants, from fixing the group hack issue to helping him move the site to a much more performant system. Hopefully he at least reads this, and whatever he chooses to do perhaps we can learn a bit more about the situation with the code and whether others will ever be able to help out.
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| May 21, 2017, 12:30 pm
Quoting andros tempest

Flex, with respect, just remember which group your posting in. I've deleted eight comments so far that are just, well, silly. You apologise but then repeat the same behaviour.

I don't want to have to suggest Mark ban you, because your opinion is just as valid as anyone else, but this isn't the place for comments like "yas" or "twu dat".

Please just think before you post, that's all I ask.

Sorry about that, though I didn't say "twu dat", I said "that's twu". I'll try to show more dignity because of the officialness(is that a word?) of this group. But this is the Internet, and a nird site, so may I ask that some slack be cut?
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| May 21, 2017, 1:00 pm
I appreciate all the efforts of Andros, Mark, and all the suggestions made here; however, this feels like a broken record skipping.

I think the main issue here is that Sean is no longer interested in Mocpages and has proven this for longer than I've been here. The key seems to be whether or not he is open to making changes, and I am not being pessimistic in saying that as he has done so in the past, so he shall in the future. I want MP to thrive and know full well that it can, but Sean has clearly checked out.

It is my opinion that we need to first establish that he intends to at least acknowledge that this site is on the verge of death. Mark, you and Chris MUST establish contact with him to see if any conversation is possible. Otherwise we are all just spinning our wheels here.

As for suggestions if he is open, I have several which I made to Mark to pass on a couple years ago. Here are a couple wheel spins.

One: more control/power to Mark, Chris, and Andros including the power to just say no. As it sits now, they pretty much have their hands tied with the overall authority on the site.

Two: a central counsel: A group of maybe nine admins from everywhere on the pages covering the spectrum of builders. This group would administer the mundane and menial questions that Mark, Chris, and Andros are inundated with and take up issues to mediate. This would be almost like a Supreme Court with leaders of the pages to be determined by those in certain age groups (Iíll explain the age group idea in a sec.) Limited terms TBD. Ultimately, they will answer to Mark, Chris, and Andros and they will answer to Sean, but only if the counsel cannot resolve it on the local level. So, actually, itís more like the Circuit Courts. I think having some tech savvy people would help out immensely in this capacity as well seeing that most the issues are tech ones.

Three: auto delete: If a builder or group is inactive for a year, an automatic notice is sent to the person or group admin that your homepage and everything on it, or your group, will be deleted in 30 days if you do not show activity. Notice is sent every week until the month is over then sploof. This will free up space on the servers (the server space is likely the issue with everything being slow there with no option for speed or upgrades.) and in a roundabout way get people to at least say something. Even if it is just a single comment, the year will reset and all is retained. This will give everyone the option of letting it expire if they so choose. Obviously, there will be those that pop in crying that they lost everything and that they didnít think it was serious and is there anything Sean can do? Defer to the counsel. If you do not accept their unanimous ďNOĒ, defer to Mark, Chris, and Andros. If you cannot accept their unanimous ďNOĒ, delete forever from that address. Done. I know this idea seems harsh, but so does the notion of perpetual space occupation slowing speeds and restricting loading. Some people gave up on this site already, let them.

Four: advertising: Of course we donít have the P&L for the site, but anyone running under a break even gain is losing and will not have the remotest bit of enthusiasm to continue. Giving Sean ideas on where to generate revenue may be enough to motivate him forward. Iím thinking publications like Blocks, Bricks, Brick Journal, etc. would be a great possibility providing both with resources. Big blogs like TBB and Tommy's could help in the same respect. I doubt Lego.com would come forward, but third parties like Brick Forge, Brickarms, Alt Bricks, etc. could be set up like everywhere with a pop-up on the side WITH NO ANIMATION that can link to a store, any purchase made through the link gets the site a ďfinderís feeĒ. Iím not entirely sure of the prospects or possibilities in this realm as I donít know the workings thereof, but Iím fairly sure this is how most sites are set up. But mainly the advertising should be topical to Lego.

Five: (this one is fairly involved so stick with me here) age appropriate restrictions: Mocpages will require an age declaration before one can post anything. There will be age groups: Up to 9, 10 to 15, 16 to 20, and 21 and up (to be refined appropriately, but this gives you an idea.) Any moc that you post will automatically post to your age group; however, like having the option to post in a category, you will have the option to post to other age groups if you wish. This will give the creator control of who in general will get to see their creation. This will afford them comfort in a peer environment where if they are young, they can build up confidence and community; if they are older, they will be able to post free from impressionable eyes. I know that this idea seems like it may alienate at first glance but it wonít if you consider all the factors of why people left for Flickr and FB. It may also seem to be the opposite of what the main purpose of the site is, to share openly; the problem with that notion is that the site has devolved from that. The parental guidance option is completely useless. I see an age limitation in both directions as the only way to filter out the nonsense of the inexperienced and the harassment of the bullies. This will mimic life in general; big fishes in the small pond of school find out instantly that the rules reset once they hit the next institution. And so on until they become adults where they realize these little slap moments are the way the world operates. Homeschoolers will benefit the most from this progression with regards to social mechanics. Additionally, the parents of youngsters will appreciate the limitation of what their precious is exposed to while still allowing creative freedom to post and interact. This will also afford a level of freedom for adults to be adults. Playing with toys. :P I think censorship filters should be gone in the adult age group and in full force as they exist now in the younger ages (A relaxation of the filters per group would be something to refine as acceptable to each age of development.) But more importantly, in the higher age groups, there will be the ability to NOT post to the younger ages so that they can speak freely and be harsh without having to consider the kiddie pool. Critiques can exist with honesty and example without trying to reword statements for a wider and overly sensitive audience. I think the censorship rules should default to the creator so that any critique will be more thoughtful on those sensitive brains. But making the censorship progressive will ease them into the fineries of talking like us (even though Iím sure we were all well versed by age five with cussing like a sailor. Go team!) Itís kind of a simple and encompassing option that I know will seem more anti-Mocpages than an improvement, but if the site exists to encourage and promote, and show off, then I know Iíd rather do it with my peers, with confidence, and among friends Iím sure of first, THEN with everyone else if I want to bother or be in some way a leader inspiring for the future.

Six: more filtration: In the comments of each post, the creator has the option to reply or delete. I think having the option to ďban forever all comments fromĒ would help destroy any strength bullies hold. I think this would alienate people but it would be THEIR choice to do so. At some point, theyíll emerge and be forced to face an embracing community, but it would be at their own schedule and on their own terms.

Apologies for the novel, but I want this site to improve rather than just simply exist.
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| May 21, 2017, 1:41 pm
Quoting Sir Flexalot
Sorry about that, though I didn't say "twu dat", I said "that's twu". I'll try to show more dignity because of the officialness(is that a word?) of this group. But this is the Internet, and a nird site, so may I ask that some slack be cut?


"Comments LIKE twu dat"

So his point still stands.

But it is so much easier to read, and people will take your voice more seriously if you write "yes, I agree, that is a very true point"- or, if your feeling very mature, "yes, I agree totally, that is a very true point, because....."

It's more for the Benifit of others hearing, trusting, and understanding you, so I doubt much "slack will be cut".
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| May 21, 2017, 2:43 pm
Another point, to be added on to some of the suggestings made by Mr. Rowntree and Allan regarding the mature content- this may be fairly obvious, but the setting would require some sort of update, eg. The system knows your twelve, but, as you get older, the system also recognises this.

I mean, I highly doubt an eighteen year old would much enjoy being stuck viewing twelve year olds' builds only.

Now, you may say that you can just change it manually- but that begs the question, if the user can change it manually, then is it effective at all, as some of the critiscims of the current system are that a child can replace it with the click of a button.
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| May 21, 2017, 2:53 pm
Quoting James Douglas
Another point, to be added on to some of the suggestings made by Mr. Rowntree and Allan regarding the mature content- this may be fairly obvious, but the setting would require some sort of update, eg. The system knows your twelve, but, as you get older, the system also recognises this.

I mean, I highly doubt an eighteen year old would much enjoy being stuck viewing twelve year olds' builds only.

Now, you may say that you can just change it manually- but that begs the question, if the user can change it manually, then is it effective at all, as some of the critiscims of the current system are that a child can replace it with the click of a button.

I think the problem is is that, as you click the mature MOC, you are given a warning, to which you can simply ignore. I think that if the ability to view these posts were hidden in the settings, then it wouldn't be as big of a deal as it is.

I also would suggest that there is some sort of lock on the mature content if people are so worried about safety of minors. Don't force a lock, but I think it would be useful if there was a permanent block of all mature content that cannot be undone.

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| May 21, 2017, 3:03 pm
Quoting James Douglas

"Comments LIKE twu dat"

So his point still stands.

But it is so much easier to read, and people will take your voice more seriously if you write "yes, I agree, that is a very true point"- or, if your feeling very mature, "yes, I agree totally, that is a very true point, because....."

It's more for the Benifit of others hearing, trusting, and understanding you, so I doubt much "slack will be cut".

yes, I agree totally, that is a very true point, because.....
Permalink
| May 21, 2017, 3:15 pm
Registration on Mocpages could simply ask for your birthday, after that all the filters take effect.
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| May 21, 2017, 3:15 pm
@Matt

Thanks for the novel! :P
Seriously, you put out some really great ideas, especially the auto delete function. So many people are still "On MP" put haven't posted or said anything for years. Also, the central council makes a lot of sense...what an efficient way to solve minor problems without bugging the true leaders of MP!


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| May 21, 2017, 3:20 pm
Quoting Sir Flexalot
yes, I agree totally, that is a very true point, because.....


Exactly the kind of commenting you have been asked to hold back on.
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| May 21, 2017, 3:21 pm
I think it should put in the thumbnail "thumbnail hidden", like where in the title it says "title hidden". And the creator can put in a section why the filter is there. For example it would say instead of "this creation may not be appropriate for kids" it would say "this creation contains: gore, violence, and language" or something of the sort
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| May 21, 2017, 3:21 pm
Quoting Sir Flexalot
I think it should put in the thumbnail "thumbnail hidden", like where in the title it says "title hidden". And the creator can put in a section why the filter is there. For example it would say instead of "this creation may not be appropriate for kids" it would say "this creation contains: gore, violence, and language" or something of the sort


but then one persons definition of gore, or of violence, or of a swear word is different to another persons.

Heck, I've even met 10 year olds who view "heck" as one of the worst words you can possibly say.
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| May 21, 2017, 3:23 pm
Quoting James Douglas

but then one persons definition of gore, or of violence, or of a swear word is different to another persons.

Heck, I've even met 10 year olds who view "heck" as one of the worst words you can possibly say.

That's just cause they don't know there's worse. You could be specific and say "(blank)-word"
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| May 21, 2017, 3:25 pm
Quoting Jonathan Demers
@Matt

Thanks for the novel! :P
Seriously, you put out some really great ideas, especially the auto delete function. So many people are still "On MP" put haven't posted or said anything for years. Also, the central council makes a lot of sense...what an efficient way to solve minor problems without bugging the true leaders of MP!



Just to add weight to matt's points through numbers, I agree with everything he said, especially the function to stop certain builders commenting on your builds.

And I did like the novel. It could have benifitted from more of a Prolouge, and perhaps a love triangle to make it attractive for teenage readers, but a good solid 4/5 from me.
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| May 21, 2017, 3:25 pm
Quoting Sir Flexalot
That's just cause they don't know there's worse. You could be specific and say "(blank)-word"


Ah, but let's say your a content creator, and, because your worried, or don't understand what is and what isn't okay, because of the word "heck" (or a similar word, but that is the only example I can post in comments) in one of your posts, you give it a "contains swearing warning", which may scare off even some teenagers, who don't know what the moc entails, and, if they did, would be more then happy to view it.
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| May 21, 2017, 3:27 pm
Quoting James Douglas

Heck, I've even met 10 year olds who view "heck" as one of the worst words you can possibly say.


Sheltered homeschoolers :P


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| May 21, 2017, 3:27 pm
Quoting Jonathan Demers

Sheltered homeschoolers :P



No actully, public schoolers.

Funnily enough their parents were more then happy to let them play "call of Duty", but not to say "heck"

Oh, wait, this went off topic. My bad.
Permalink
| May 21, 2017, 3:29 pm
There are words in the English lexicon that fully express everything with four letters. Heck is not one of them. ;)

As an adult who uses those words on a VERY frequent basis, I would very much enjoy the freedom to do so here. But I do respect that I am in the presence of many that would be offended and alter my tongue appropriately.
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| May 21, 2017, 3:35 pm
Quoting James Douglas

Ah, but let's say your a content creator, and, because your worried, or don't understand what is and what isn't okay, because of the word "heck" (or a similar word, but that is the only example I can post in comments) in one of your posts, you give it a "contains swearing warning", which may scare off even some teenagers, who don't know what the moc entails, and, if they did, would be more then happy to view it.

Things like "the beaver word" (you'll probably know what I'm talking about) either won't have a filter, or will have a filter with "minor language" for example, things like "h-e-double hockey sticks" would say minor language, but something like "the f bomb" would obviously be "very strong Language". And the mods would set these standards. Also, there could be a separate label for innapropriate slang. And perhaps admins should have the power to add filters themselves, cause I've seen stuff without filters that need them (shutters)
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| May 21, 2017, 3:36 pm
Perhaps the staff could be set up with the power that group staff has. Like deleting comments and creations, banning people, etc. Because as far as I know, only Sean can do that
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| May 21, 2017, 3:42 pm
Quoting matt rowntRee



Great thoughts man.

There's only one point I disagree with, and that's deleting old content. I'd be curious if there really is a huge server space problem first before we do something so drastic because one of the neatest things about MOCpages is finding old but still amazing content. The other day I was flipping through AP's page (http://www.moc-pages.com/home.php/53079) and that person hasn't posted since 2012 but wow I was having so much fun feasting my eyes on that incredible work and it seriously inspired some ideas for my latest build. So just a caution there. If we had to do it, to make MOCpages viable, then ok, but my vote is try to find any other way.

I very much like your proposal for a council and a three tiered system. At the top Sean. Then the current admins... though hopefully plus say two active current users so that major decisions are made quickly, say if Andros is busy for a couple days we're still good to go. Then a larger council made up entirely of active current users (membership updated regularly, say every 6 months?) to field lots of the questions.

And thanks to Mark for stepping back in to have this conversation!
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| May 21, 2017, 5:42 pm
Quoting Sir Flexalot
Things like "the beaver word" (you'll probably know what I'm talking about) either won't have a filter, or will have a filter with "minor language" for example, things like "h-e-double hockey sticks" would say minor language, but something like "the f bomb" would obviously be "very strong Language". And the mods would set these standards. Also, there could be a separate label for innapropriate slang. And perhaps admins should have the power to add filters themselves, cause I've seen stuff without filters that need them (shutters)


Admins can already do that.
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| May 21, 2017, 5:45 pm
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist

I think having a user such as yourself offer assistance to Sean with our backing is a great idea. My preference in a perfect world would be to have the site coding be an in-house mocpages community provided skill. Obviously that requires peole with time/appropriate skill so at least you'd be a good candidate for a one time update. It isn't fair or smart to assume you'd then do it forever alone. If only we had more people who could form a small group for site maintenance... Anyway, if Sean declines to use your expertise in the near term due to some of the aforementioned possible issues we can offer alternatives as mentioned in other posts in this thread to help motivate him to get the changes made.
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| May 21, 2017, 5:49 pm
Quoting --R.K. Blast--
--Blast--


I agree fully. Let's close that simple security flaw first, then get the uploader working. Those two things... plus I'd add a third: the crashing, are the top issues in my book, and we can build and prioritize a backlog of other improvement ideas to tackle when these are done - and put them in a formal letter or something similar as you suggest.
Also, I think you'd be a great choice to be part of Matt's suggested council. Perhaps you don't have a ton of time, but you could chip in sometimes, especially if you check in frequently so you could assist with high priority items if needed, and a 9 person council allows the freedom for each person to be available at their own convenience for the most part.
I'm not sure who does have the time to be an uber admin like Mark/Andros, but I do still think we need to add at least two active people to that list.
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| May 21, 2017, 5:58 pm
Quoting Doug Hughes

The delete feature is two-fold. And it's good and bad.

I too don't want to loose what wonders have been archived here, but I mainly want to delete inactive groups. Second are the inactive builders and those who have completely jumped ship. This can only help with space which can assuredly help with speed and features.

Secondly is that if any builder is actually serious about their creations, they will have to be serious about keeping them here. This forces them into an active roll rather than a passive disinterest at best.

Perhaps the threat of losing it all will make everyone think twice about leaving. I don't like that position; however, I think we're left with very few options.

Understand also, and this goes for everyone, these are just ideas. The feasibility and execution thereof are definitely considerations. But, the more ammo we give Mark, the more Sean will have to acknowledge and concede that we ALL mean business.

Time to fix this thing.
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| May 21, 2017, 6:03 pm
Quoting matt rowntRee
The delete feature is two-fold. And it's good and bad.

I too don't want to loose what wonders have been archived here, but I mainly want to delete inactive groups. Second are the inactive builders and those who have completely jumped ship. This can only help with space which can assuredly help with speed and features.

Secondly is that if any builder is actually serious about their creations, they will have to be serious about keeping them here. This forces them into an active roll rather than a passive disinterest at best.

Perhaps the threat of losing it all will make everyone think twice about leaving. I don't like that position; however, I think we're left with very few options.

Understand also, and this goes for everyone, these are just ideas. The feasibility and execution thereof are definitely considerations. But, the more ammo we give Mark, the more Sean will have to acknowledge and concede that we ALL mean business.

Time to fix this thing.

Definitely agree aggressive action and proving we're serious about fixing the site is the way to go, so thanks for helping push this and sharing your ideas man. Maybe we can save the old creations if we dump old groups, or who knows, maybe there's cheaper storage options out there too like what Luke was suggesting. I like thinking through all these potential options!

Of course until we get to Sean to understand the ground rules we're working under, it's all a bit of a guessing game.
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| May 21, 2017, 6:14 pm
Quoting Sir Flexalot
Perhaps the staff could be set up with the power that group staff has. Like deleting comments and creations, banning people, etc. Because as far as I know, only Sean can do that

Please note that I specifically used the word "unanimous" for a reason. Without that, it falls on a higher court. Then ultimately to Sean. The last thing Mocpages needs is fiefdoms dictating beliefs. Because one person finds something offensive does not mean that they should dictate statutes. I think the issues had with Bricks Noir is evidence that this sort of power would only be corrosive.
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| May 21, 2017, 6:20 pm
Quoting Doug Hughes
Definitely agree aggressive action and proving we're serious about fixing the site is the way to go, so thanks for helping push this and sharing your ideas man. Maybe we can save the old creations if we dump old groups, or who knows, maybe there's cheaper storage options out there too like what Luke was suggesting. I like thinking through all these potential options!

Of course until we get to Sean to understand the ground rules we're working under, it's all a bit of a guessing game.

Guessing game is the truth. If Sean isn't open or interested, this site is dead.
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| May 21, 2017, 6:23 pm
Seeing a lot about deleting inactive members.

Honestly, I think that would be a bad idea. The last thing you want to do when facing low activity is deleting inactive members. mainly because there is a chance that they will come back. I myself was gone for about two years but then I came back, and became more active. Even if people create a new account, they'll be starting from nothing, which can be quite disheartening, especially if they used to be very popular.

The threat of deleting a page because it's not active will, in all likelihood, drive people away. The unfortunate fact is that many people are inactive because they simply don't have the time to upload things.

I do agree with the group thing though. After all, there are a lot of inactive groups that haven't had much activity for years.

Anyways, those are my thoughts on the subject.
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| May 21, 2017, 6:25 pm
Quoting matt rowntRee
Please note that I specifically used the word "unanimous" for a reason. Without that, it falls on a higher court. Then ultimately to Sean. The last thing Mocpages needs is fiefdoms dictating beliefs. Because one person finds something offensive does not mean that they should dictate statutes. I think the issues had with Bricks Noir is evidence that this sort of power would only be corrosive.

That's very true, I didn't read that really long comment you left because I didn't have time, should really check it out.
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| May 21, 2017, 7:07 pm
I don't agree with the idea of deleting old accounts, as a lot of my inspiration (and Bobby Hunter's) come from inactive users, and I'm sure we aren't the only ones.
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| May 21, 2017, 7:19 pm
Quoting Sir Flexalot
I don't agree with the idea of deleting old accounts, as a lot of my inspiration (and Bobby Hunter's) come from inactive users, and I'm sure we aren't the only ones.

Remember, I too do NOT want to delete any archival material, in this stage of development of Lego as art it is truly invaluable. However, groups need to be thinned and builders need to be threatened. This site should not reside as "another photo dump" but rather a destination worth all of our attention and care.
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| May 21, 2017, 7:27 pm
Quoting matt rowntRee
Remember, I too do NOT want to delete any archival material, in this stage of development of Lego as art it is truly invaluable. However, groups need to be thinned and builders need to be threatened. This site should not reside as "another photo dump" but rather a destination worth all of our attention and care.

You do make a point, but perhaps make it more than a year.
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| May 21, 2017, 7:52 pm
Holy Bajolies that's a lot of writing. Let this be a lesson to all of you: Do NOT go to LEGOLAND for a day, otherwise you will miss the biggest and most productive comment spree of the year.

Lot's of good stuff here. I did read just about all of it. I started skimming at matt rowntRee's novel (Sorry, there's just so much.) But it's nice to finally see something good happening now that we got Mark back for even just a day to maybe get some democracy in action to make MOCpages function like it used to.

I have seen some things I disagree with.

Sean does still care about the site, he hasn't abandoned it as has been suggested. The way MOCpages has always worked was as a side project that would be maintained in free time. The problem now is that we cannot get the help for MOCpages it needs because the time has been gobbled up, even from Mark and Chris. (Thanks Mark for entertaining the idea that new management may be in order.)

Deleting accounts seems a bit much. I certainly understand the thought process behind it, but the reason why all these accounts are inactive are from a number of reasons. Some people have abandoned the pages because they have lost the interest in LEGO. To that, I would say then it might be a valid reason to remove accounts. There are also a number of accounts that literally only have less than ten creations from ten years ago. Again, kind of the same deal. The problem I think we have the inactivity in more current accounts though is because of the uploader not working.

Enough people may not know what to do about it, contact Sean via the link at the bottom of the pages (rumor has that also doesn't work), and then they leave because they can't get anything to work and can't get help from someone they should be able to trust. I don't think a lot of people actually know about this group despite it also being advertised on the help page. That uploader is the biggest concern to me and if it had not been for this group and andros tempest's Java fixes, I wouldn't be uploading.

We need recoding for videos to work without having to use outdated coding that I have offered here in the past. I have video reviews of my MOCs that I share and despite having my old coding saved on a document, embedding a video was very simple and now it is just that little bit more work that can scare away those trying to add some extra flare to their posts.

And finally there's the big one a lot of people used to talk about, but I'll bring it up.

Mobil devices. I'm not a big user of them, but many people today are on a phone or tablet. Sites that can adjust to that format will perform better. It's a big overhaul though, I will admit, but that's what Brickset did. Brickset is a totally different site with different funding and support, but it only helped them to make the upgrade to adjust formatting of the site based on screen sizes between desktops, tablets, and phones.
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| May 21, 2017, 8:40 pm
And about content rating, and who can view it. That is so hard to quantify.

So first, I think that PG filter has never worked. I've had that thing turned off since day one of it's implementation, and I'm still asked if I really want to see the creation. Or at least, the first time I want to view a PG post in a session on MOCpages.

Now onto the "who can view what" section. Birthday makes sense, it works, but I would say only for posts that are marked as mature by the creator. There is that super gray area of teenagerdom where everyone is at their own level of understanding and interpreting what has been posted, and that's where the birthday system falls apart. There is a certain level of responsibility on the viewer's side, and there is always lying about one's age.

For those really concerned for what they may see, they need their own system to block out what they don't want to see and not what is automatically banned by the site. That may be the system to go with if such a thing were implemented. If you don't want to see risque ladies, then if the creation is marked as mature by the creator and you want all mature things removed from your line of sight, then you should be allowed to do that. And if the creators don't abide, that's when moderation steps in to right the wrongs. MOCpages already has a diligent and devoted group of whistleblowers that point out illegal posts and homepages, and they also find the more mature posts, too.

Currently though, the only two in current memory to really test the waters have been P. Andrei and Bricks Noir, moreso Bricks because of all the censorship in the thumbnails, but there have been a number of other posts in the past by other builders. There is a lot of effort that goes into making the thumbnail acceptable to be viewed by everyone but also attract the demographic desired by the creator.

At the end of the day, if that is really too much work for the site at this time, then all I have to say to everyone is use self control and have some common sense. Old conversation, I know, but a reminder for all if the PG system is not going to be revised anytime soon.
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| May 21, 2017, 9:10 pm
Quoting MCLegoboy !

You would be at the top of my list of candidates that keep a cool head and have the language of the interwebs well in hand.

I have to disagree about your assessment of Sean not losing interest about Mocpages though. It has been proven clear that he is truly the "absentee landlord" that has been stated by many in the past. Trust me that I do NOT hold it against him, he like us has a life outside this corner of the web. But the fact remains that he is not here looking to improve and fix the problems at hand.

I will refrain from disparaging him as he does not remotely deserve it, but he is culpable by not actively participating. I draw a very thin line in that respect and perhaps to my own fault it resides; however, I cannot abide or admonish his lack of action here as merely disinterest. I want him in here even more than my good friends Mark and Chris, but if we have to communicate through intermediaries to a king that throws a deaf ear our direction, and has done so for several years now, I will always question their commitment. And I will refuse to fall under that system that will not acknowledge even the softest voice. I do NOT have the answers, but I'm at least willing to be here and find them.

The fix must start at the top. AND it is up to all of us to carry it through.

As for the technical issues that plague this site, I cannot provide an answer at all. I know nothing about the language herein and would not ever express any expertise thereof. I can hit a compooter real good with a hammer, and that's about it. This is however a vital issue that must also be addressed. But there are several dominoes that must fall first before those can.

The main issue is Sean's participation and motivation here. Unfortunately, I have yet to see any of that over the past several years online aside from an occasional post every nine months or so from some exotic locale. Seriously, great for him; but, we are here holding the tureen of cold soup wondering when we get to eat.
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| May 21, 2017, 11:25 pm
I would like to apologize for the pessimistic tone that I seem to be exuding, it IS actually intentional. I feel that the "kind" tact has run its course over the years and has amounted to absolutely nothing. I think it's time to throw caution to the wind and say exactly what I want regardless of how it comes across. I am truly disgusted with the way things have devolved here and want nothing but the best to come about. If that means that I come across as a spiteful grouch, so be it. I know that Mocpages is worth the fight and I am willing to give this lost cause all I have.

The beer helps though. ;)
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| May 21, 2017, 11:34 pm
Quoting matt rowntRee
Three: auto delete


Overall, I agree with your sentiments Matt, you raise some great suggestions.

I do want to suggest that the auto delete is probably not necessary though, and indeed may do more harm than good.

I'm not sure what the average size of a MOC here is, but we know there's 439,000 of them. I picked a few fairly average length MOCs, with 6-10 photos, and judging by that we're looking at 20-60 GB of data for MOCs and their comments (probably closer to 20GB). Many MOCs are quite large, with closer to 20 images, but many others only have 1-3, so I think it evens out.

20-60 GB isn't that large, and additionally it looks like the images could be further compressed, which could probably shave 25-40% of the site's size off (though it'd be a bit of a challenge optimizing all the images, but not too hard).

A $20/month server can handle 48GB, and a $40/month server can handle 96GB, so that shouldn't be a problem even if it's a bit bigger than expected - I'd estimate that with MOCpages traffic and ads the site's making somewhere between $250-$1000 a month, so those server costs aren't bad. Of course, I don't know what server plan MOCpages is on right now.

The main reason MOCpages has crashed in the past, as I understand it, is from the database going down - that's caused by too many requests and possibly inefficient SQL queries to the database, rather than the size of any requests being served. I'm not sure what the situation's like now, but it would be worth checking how the database is set up and what queries are being used to see if that could be optimized more.

But here's the real concern with deleting old pages - you lose content. Not just in the sense that I'd be sad to not be able to look over awesome old MOCs, but in the sense that Google's going to send less traffic to the site because it has less to offer. All the hundreds of thousands of words and pages on this site are a goldmine for Google, and it's what allows this site to rank highly and get new visitors. Start culling that content and the rankings drop, and then the traffic drops. Maybe you can save a bit of money on the server, but I really don't think it'd be worth the price of reduced traffic and new users. Plus I really would be saddened to see old builds wiped off the map. ;)


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| May 21, 2017, 11:57 pm
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist

No doubt that I too would be devastated by the archival loss. My suggestion of auto delete is aimed at clearing space on an antiquated server. It is surely a last resort.

I added the notion that it would not be instantaneous but rather over a month and with repeated inquiries whether to go ahead and delete or not. This would instigate participation even if they pop in with a "bump." The main focus is on the inactive groups. There are so many here that have not been active for many years. And with the notifications, again a simple "bump" would reset the year (or whatever seems fitting for a time frame.)

It is only one of my suggestions and it seems to be garnering the highest distaste. I don't like it either. However, if the system is at risk due to the lack of space and the traffic therein, then clear cutting swaths might be an option. MIGHT be, not the only. Better servers with more capacity works, but at a cost. I am offering Sean a possibility of a zero cost option. It's not a lure, but it is not going to set him in the opposite direction as yet another out of pocket cost.
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| May 22, 2017, 12:17 am
Quoting matt rowntRee
No doubt that I too would be devastated by the archival loss. My suggestion of auto delete is aimed at clearing space on an antiquated server. It is surely a last resort.

I added the notion that it would not be instantaneous but rather over a month and with repeated inquiries whether to go ahead and delete or not. This would instigate participation even if they pop in with a "bump." The main focus is on the inactive groups. There are so many here that have not been active for many years. And with the notifications, again a simple "bump" would reset the year (or whatever seems fitting for a time frame.)

It is only one of my suggestions and it seems to be garnering the highest distaste. I don't like it either. However, if the system is at risk due to the lack of space and the traffic therein, then clear cutting swaths might be an option. MIGHT be, not the only. Better servers with more capacity works, but at a cost. I am offering Sean a possibility of a zero cost option. It's not a lure, but it is not going to set him in the opposite direction as yet another out of pocket cost.


Yeah, if he's currently on a server that's really cheap, that could be necessary. I have a sneaking suspicion that he's paying for something overpriced and underspec'ed right now though, but I'm not sure. Any big server change is of course a challenge, so we'll see what direction this all goes if any.

Ultimately, I think the code has so much room for improvement that there's no need to cut things down - if we're modifying code anyway, might as well just make it better and save money that way.

So for me, I think the main breakdown comes down to this:

1. Have Sean Kenney give us some input. I know he's busy, and I appreciate all the time he has put into the site. But at this point, we need to know if he's willing to make changes, if he recognizes the difficulties being faced, and to what extent he's willing or able to let others help.

2. Fix the bugs. Primarily, the group hacking bug. That should be quick and easy, but the difference having a secure experience makes is tangible.

3. Strategize properly and delegate power appropriately. Matt, your idea of a group of people of different age groups is great. We have people of all ages on here, and each age group uses it differently, so everyone having a voice is important if we're to know what's important. And I really think the admins need more power to exercise at their judgement - there are dozens if not hundreds of high profile MOCs that are 99% spam likes. Not only will removing most of these likes make the site more attractive, it'll also discourage spammers in the future.

4. Replace the Java Applet image uploader with an HTML5/Javascript image uploader. Java Applets become harder and harder to use every year, and it's a big reason why people leave the site. MOCpages needs to be as easier as Flickr to upload to. Now, we can still keep the current uploader, like we kept the old uploader. Give people three options, maybe they prefer the other unloaders or they work better for them. But more modern browsers need a more modern uploader.

5. Change how the site's hosted, and optimize the code. For the 15 years this site's been online, Sean's never once monetized it beyond ads. No premium accounts, no online store, just little old ads on the side. I have a lot of respect for that, MOCpages is 100% free to use. But that means it doesn't make much money. In order to run well on a limited budget and handle traffic spikes, it needs to have efficient technology running it. This isn't necessarily an easy or painless switch, but it's a lot less painless than a crash every summer.

This is all in order. If we don't hear from Sean, what's the point? Might as well just make a clone of MOCpages and move over there if MOCpages has been given up on. But I love the site, and hope it stays up forever, so hopefully Sean does pop by.

The bug fix is minor, but I think it'd be such an easy fix and such a morale boost that it's worth doing ASAP.

Ultimately, MOCpages is all about community, so that's why I think that's the next step. Bring the community together again and keep it active and the site will thrive no matter what.

But it's a lot easier to keep that community engaged if the site's easy to use, and if it doesn't crash. So that's where points four and five come in, even though they would take a little bit to implement.
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| May 22, 2017, 12:48 am
Quoting Declan Muller
Maybe a MOCpages facebook page? I know there is one, but its never active. A business page where multiple people answer requests could work.

The problem there is that not everybody uses facebook (like myself) or have access to it. The advantage of an email solution is that most people have an email address, and if a KFOL or even TFOL does not have one, a parent could write to the staff on their behalf :-)
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| May 22, 2017, 1:14 am
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist

Yup, we're definitely on the exact same page. ;)
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| May 22, 2017, 1:15 am
Quoting Sir Flexalot
I think it should be less strict for TFOLs, like the thumbnail is hidden, but personally I don't understand the hidden title part

About the hidden title: This is because some MOCs (like Giovanni's P.O.W. MOCs) Have very... uhm, mature words in the title :-)
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| May 22, 2017, 1:17 am
I would just like to say about deleting content, that i am mostly against it. As has been said, a treasure of great MOCs with exciting techniques would be lost, which would have an impact on the overall progression in skills of the users over time. That said, the deletion of groups could be a good idea. I would like to suggest two changes though:

1: The time frame. Perhaps the time that has to pass before deletion could be 2 or 5 years instead of 1 year.

2: A minimum members requirement. When a group passes the time limit, it would only be deleted if it had, say, less than 25 or 50 members. Some groups have grown very large over time, and i think it would be frustrating to many if they were deleted, even though there has been no conversation in those groups for a long time.
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| May 22, 2017, 1:29 am
Goodness! So many awesome ideas! There's so much to say... but I don't have much time currently, so for now I'll just say this;

I don't think the auto-deletion system is a good idea. As others have said, it may hurt the site rather than help revive it. Though, Builder Allan's idea is reasonable. And, if it'll keep the 'Pages alive, by all means, do it.
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| May 22, 2017, 1:51 am
Quoting Builder Allan
I would just like to say about deleting content, that i am mostly against it. As has been said, a treasure of great MOCs with exciting techniques would be lost, which would have an impact on the overall progression in skills of the users over time. That said, the deletion of groups could be a good idea. I would like to suggest two changes though:

1: The time frame. Perhaps the time that has to pass before deletion could be 2 or 5 years instead of 1 year.

2: A minimum members requirement. When a group passes the time limit, it would only be deleted if it had, say, less than 25 or 50 members. Some groups have grown very large over time, and i think it would be frustrating to many if they were deleted, even though there has been no conversation in those groups for a long time.


I'd maybe be fine with deleting old empty groups, but there are a lot of small inactive groups that I like to look back on every now and then - like MocAthalon team groups, some smaller contests, and old judges lounges. Some fun historical banter to review from time to time. Plus they take up very little space on the site - the only image groups add is a tiny icon, and text isn't strenuous on the server, so I think it'd ultimately be more effort than it's worth.

(I was curious though, because I didn't know for sure, so here's some further explanation after I looked into it.)

The median group has 5 comments in it, so it's not taking up a lot of space. If we deleted every group that falls under the median activity threshold (roughly 4470 groups), that would save less than 0.15 Gigabytes of space, which costs roughly four cents a month - probably not worth the work.

Maybe we can think about that kind of stuff in the future, but I think that's something to chat about later on in Matt's strategy bunker. Good to think about that though, and personally I'd love to see the spam accounts and groups deleted (I have a group where I invited 1500 spam accounts, and while they don't take up much server space they are a bother when inviting people to groups since they show up in the search listings).
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| May 22, 2017, 1:58 am
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist

I didn't think about that, but you're right actually :-) I was just trying to suggest changes to Matt's idea to make it more palatable to everybody if content deletion in some form was something to be considered now by Sean.

I also agree with you that deletion of content might be an issue best saved for a later date :-)
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| May 22, 2017, 2:12 am
Quoting Builder Allan
About the hidden title: This is because some MOCs (like Giovanni's P.O.W. MOCs) Have very... uhm, mature words in the title :-)

Ah, ok, thanks! I personally think the warning should dhow who made it
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| May 22, 2017, 7:18 am
 Group admin 
Quoting matt rowntRee
I think the main issue here is that Sean is no longer interested in Mocpages and has proven this for longer than I've been here. The key seems to be whether or not he is open to making changes, and I am not being pessimistic in saying that as he has done so in the past, so he shall in the future. I want MP to thrive and know full well that it can, but Sean has clearly checked out.

It is my opinion that we need to first establish that he intends to at least acknowledge that this site is on the verge of death. Mark, you and Chris MUST establish contact with him to see if any conversation is possible. Otherwise we are all just spinning our wheels here.


Lot's of good input, guys. I'll try to sift through it as time allows. The above is perhaps the most poignant of all. That, in my opinion, is the true "bottom line" right there.

I'm going to continue to listen to thoughts for a bit, though. When I'm done, I'll give Sean another try with an email and try to plead our case, so to speak. My goal is to make this communication different than anything I've previously sent - those emails have always been "Hey Sean, here is this issue" and "Hey Sean, here is that issue." This time, instead of bombarding him with random problems, I hope to have a concise list of topics to address, all in a single communication, that will cover everything. As I stated at the start of this thread, I don't know if it will make any difference. But, I felt like I had to try.

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| May 22, 2017, 7:32 am
 Group admin 
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist

....So for me, I think the main breakdown comes down to this:

1. Have Sean Kenney give us some input. I know he's busy, and I appreciate all the time he has put into the site. But at this point, we need to know if he's willing to make changes, if he recognizes the difficulties being faced, and to what extent he's willing or able to let others help.

2. Fix the bugs. Primarily, the group hacking bug. That should be quick and easy, but the difference having a secure experience makes is tangible.

3. Strategize properly and delegate power appropriately. Matt, your idea of a group of people of different age groups is great. We have people of all ages on here, and each age group uses it differently, so everyone having a voice is important if we're to know what's important. And I really think the admins need more power to exercise at their judgement - there are dozens if not hundreds of high profile MOCs that are 99% spam likes. Not only will removing most of these likes make the site more attractive, it'll also discourage spammers in the future.

4. Replace the Java Applet image uploader with an HTML5/Javascript image uploader. Java Applets become harder and harder to use every year, and it's a big reason why people leave the site. MOCpages needs to be as easier as Flickr to upload to. Now, we can still keep the current uploader, like we kept the old uploader. Give people three options, maybe they prefer the other unloaders or they work better for them. But more modern browsers need a more modern uploader.

5. Change how the site's hosted, and optimize the code. For the 15 years this site's been online, Sean's never once monetized it beyond ads. No premium accounts, no online store, just little old ads on the side. I have a lot of respect for that, MOCpages is 100% free to use. But that means it doesn't make much money. In order to run well on a limited budget and handle traffic spikes, it needs to have efficient technology running it. This isn't necessarily an easy or painless switch, but it's a lot less painless than a crash every summer.

This is all in order. If we don't hear from Sean, what's the point? Might as well just make a clone of MOCpages and move over there if MOCpages has been given up on. But I love the site, and hope it stays up forever, so hopefully Sean does pop by.

The bug fix is minor, but I think it'd be such an easy fix and such a morale boost that it's worth doing ASAP.

Ultimately, MOCpages is all about community, so that's why I think that's the next step. Bring the community together again and keep it active and the site will thrive no matter what.

But it's a lot easier to keep that community engaged if the site's easy to use, and if it doesn't crash. So that's where points four and five come in, even though they would take a little bit to implement.


This is the kind of stuff I'm really looking for; immediate, clear and simplified to the fullest extent possible.

I want to address Sean with something that isn't overwhelming, suggestions for improvements that feel manageable given his limited time (and perhaps resources).

If there's any chance of him agreeing to making adjustments (both technical and managerial), I think it lies in those adjustments being easy, and a one-time-only kind of thing.
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| May 22, 2017, 8:13 am
 Group moderator 
Quoting Sir Flexalot
Sorry about that, though I didn't say "twu dat", I said "that's twu". I'll try to show more dignity because of the officialness(is that a word?) of this group. But this is the Internet, and a nird site, so may I ask that some slack be cut?


That's not really the point I was making. You seem to be under the impression you need to comment on and acknowledge posts from your friends, regardless whether your reply is off topic. Why should I cut you slack I don't cut anyone else? ANY "filler" will be deleted, just so that the conversation is kept to a managable length and entirely on topic.

I used you as an example Flex because you do it far more than anyone else, and far more than someone aware that it's a problem should in all honesty. But yours weren't the only comments to be removed.



And this is directed to everyone. The ideas we generate are not all going to be implimented, or even possible. But adding comments like "i agree" or "this is great" don't really add much weight. It isn't the most popular ideas that will go to Sean, but the most realistic.

So by all means, keep pitching solutions, suggestions and highlighting issues you feel have been overlooked. But stop "approving" or "acknowledging" posts, just to feel a part of the process. It isn't moving the conversation forward and is just turning the thread into a sea of words no one has the time to wade through.



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| May 22, 2017, 8:41 am
Quoting andros tempest

That's not really the point I was making. You seem to be under the impression you need to comment on and acknowledge posts from your friends, regardless whether your reply is off topic. Why should I cut you slack I don't cut anyone else? ANY "filler" will be deleted, just so that the conversation is kept to a managable length and entirely on topic.

I used you as an example Flex because you do it far more than anyone else, and far more than someone aware that it's a problem should in all honesty. But yours weren't the only comments to be removed.



And this is directed to everyone. The ideas we generate are not all going to be implimented, or even possible. But adding comments like "i agree" or "this is great" don't really add much weight. It isn't the most popular ideas that will go to Sean, but the most realistic.

So by all means, keep pitching solutions, suggestions and highlighting issues you feel have been overlooked. But stop "approving" or "acknowledging" posts, just to feel a part of the process. It isn't moving the conversation forward and is just turning the thread into a sea of words no one has the time to wade through.



Ok, thank you for clearing that up. Speaking of which, I think more enforcement against spam is a good idea. Especially those garabage "meme builds" the OS guys used to do.
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| May 22, 2017, 9:06 am
Quoting Sir Flexalot
Ok, thank you for clearing that up. Speaking of which, I think more enforcement against spam is a good idea. Especially those garabage "meme builds" the OS guys used to do.

Everyone is entitled to post their builds, no matter how serious. The problem we ran into with that one MOC that was posted here was Raptor Talon spamming the same comment over and over which also added likes with each comment. I can point you to a bunch of AFOL MOCs that are actually perfectly acceptable, but are very dirty in nature. The builds themselves are actually quite acceptable, but the titles are suggestive and the comments are full of everyone's dirty thoughts. PG filter was put in place of course, but the builds are just for a laugh. That's not really any different to what goes on in the circles you reference. There shouldn't be anything that does not comply with MOCpages rules, and so aside from the spamming of comments, the builds are legitimate, even when intentionally bad. So long as they do not actively seek to attack anyone specific or a group of people, so long as the MOC does not violate the rules of being too graphic in nature, and so long as the comments do not get spammed, the MOCs posted are allowed, no matter how objectively and subjectively unworthy they may be perceived.
Permalink
| May 22, 2017, 10:44 am
Looking over my list of five suggestions from last night, I just realized that resolving most of the causes of spam could be done just as easily as fixing the group hacking exploit, so I'd add that to that part of the list too. The site already checks if you've liked a MOC already, so you can't like it twice. Just apply that to comments too, so that when you comment multiple times it doesn't like it multiple times - should be fairly simple.
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| May 22, 2017, 11:03 am
Quoting matt rowntRee
Remember, I too do NOT want to delete any archival material, in this stage of development of Lego as art it is truly invaluable. However, groups need to be thinned and builders need to be threatened. This site should not reside as "another photo dump" but rather a destination worth all of our attention and care.


I still don't agree with any of this. Many of the people ,ah not even receive the message, perhaps ones which have changed their email without telling MP, etc


I do agree with groups, though. Inactive groups are indeed clutter.
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| May 22, 2017, 11:48 am
If you need the suggestions in short points, here is a summary of mine in adjusted form:

1: An external (or internal if possible) email address for requests of sensitive nature (like bullying or improper content) to which the admins/mods of the site has access.

2: Addition of birth date to accounts to eliminate access to mature content for minors in place of the current PG system.

These suggestions are not made because i mind mature content, on the contrary they are made to ensure that those of us that don't mind that sort of content can view it without worrying that others might be offended by said content :-)
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| May 22, 2017, 12:18 pm
 Group moderator 
Quoting James Douglas

I still don't agree with any of this. Many of the people ,ah not even receive the message, perhaps ones which have changed their email without telling MP, etc


I do agree with groups, though. Inactive groups are indeed clutter.


There are risks involved, how do you define "inactive", many grouos go through peaks and troughs of activity. The only groups I would define as dead, are those where all the members have deleted their accounts. I get that server space is not unlimited and shrinking the database by eliminating the excess fat is needed, but perhaps that could be achieved by archiving older conversations?

Permalink
| May 22, 2017, 12:29 pm
 Group moderator 
Quoting Builder Allan
If you need the suggestions in short points, here is a summary of mine in adjusted form:

1: An external (or internal if possible) email address for requests of sensitive nature (like bullying or improper content) to which the admins/mods of the site has access.

2: Addition of birth date to accounts to eliminate access to mature content for minors in place of the current PG system.

These suggestions are not made because i mind mature content, on the contrary they are made to ensure that those of us that don't mind that sort of content can view it without worrying that others might be offended by said content :-)


It is definitely long over due that there was an email for the website rather than the admins giving us their personal information.

It wouldn't be that difficult to create a: info@mocpages.com address. certainly this would provide a layer of security for the reporting of sensitive issues.
Permalink
| May 22, 2017, 12:34 pm
Quoting MCLegoboy !
And about content rating, and who can view it. That is so hard to quantify.

.....

At the end of the day, if that is really too much work for the site at this time, then all I have to say to everyone is use self control and have some common sense. Old conversation, I know, but a reminder for all if the PG system is not going to be revised anytime soon.

I certainly agree it's a grey area when it comes to who can see what content.

I also agree that there would be problems with the birth date-system if it were to be implemented, but it's probably the best that can be done short of forcing memebers to prove their birth date with valid IDs, which would mean having the admins needing to be able to recognize IDs from across the planet :-)

However, if a birth date-system were to be implemented (with or without validation), to reflect the differences in maturity while growing up a simplified system resembling the one for movies could be made?

In that case, i would suggest three "levels" based on age:

A: All ages. Similar to not adding PG to a MOC today.
15+: Restricted level 1. Only to be viewed if you are above the age of 15.
R: Restricted level 2. Only to be viewed if you are above the age of 18.

Along with this, there could an option on the account itself to restrict content additionally to varying degrees. For example, you could set the account settings to not show 15+ or R builds regardless of age if for instance an adult would like to avoid mature content completely.

The downside is that somebody would have to decide which builds fall into which category and rewrite the rules of the site to reflect this. Also, it would mean that any build with a restriction would have to go into moderation to ensure that people follow the rules and place the builds in the right category (mostly if the build should be R instead of 15+).

However, all of this would need some major reprogramming of the PG-system. And like you said, that is unlikely to happen :-)
Permalink
| May 22, 2017, 1:42 pm
Hereís my put for a plan based on the previously floated ideas Ė lots of regurgitation here but to attempt to organize, clarify, and put my idea of priority on it. Sorry this is another long one ;)

1. Establish contact with Sean and get his approval to make specific changes Ė be it with luke doing some coding or if Sean can find a way to use his previous resources. Get agreement from him to help with this one time enhancement push for the next couple monthsÖ minimal inputs from him, but occasional action needed.

2. Set up the three tier leadership system and get members assigned.
Sean at the top to administer the financials of the site and if he wants to weigh in he has final say on content etc.
Admins next (with additional two active users to help Andros), with the power to basically make all major decisions that arenít server based. This would hopefully include access to the code base and the ability to push changes when urgent.
Then the third is the ďcouncilĒ say of 9 distributed users from various age groups and interests to field most questions and deal with disputes and moderating various things like new users etc.

3. Set up the external or internal email address that is readable by all the leadership above, generally only looked at by the council, and the admins would be nudged if required, conceivably there could then be a second email address just for them where the council forwards tough issues.

4. Set up a regular forum for the admins and council to come together and discuss the prioritized list of improvements needed/wanted and general points of direction for the site. Google hangout maybe, but one that people actually call into so it isnít just an extended string of comments that never gets resolved. Priority log. Action item log. General schedule. That sort of stuff.

Ok, thatís in my mind the near term needs to kick off an improvement spree.
So hereís how Iíd personally prioritize the improvements but I think in the end this priority would be decided by the admins/council and also by cost and complexity so it may shift over time as the plan comes together (and new items will be added and some tossed):

-Group Hacking bug fix
-Fix for database crashing Ė code optimization?
-Java Applet image uploader replaced with a new HTML5/Javascript image uploader
-Like spam fix
-Better filtering Ė see Mattís comment about dealing with bullies etc.
-Birth date/parental controls update
-Deleting ANYTHING at all Ė I would argue against it, but perhaps with measured discussion the pages leadership can find some efficiency with no real loss to the site.
-Consider new hosting/money plan, including advertising revenue bump, store, premium acctsÖ lots of suggestions to consider
-Mobile Device support
Permalink
| May 22, 2017, 2:46 pm
I think that the two most important issues to fix are the uploader and the group hack. Especially the uploader, since that's what has drawn so many people away from this site.
Permalink
| May 22, 2017, 3:02 pm
I'm going to duck back in for a second and say I am also against deleting any existing content. Ideally for me, I would like inactive groups to be given walking papers after 1 year, there are just WAY too many groups and they're hard to tell which are active, which are not, and a lot are duplicative of each other. I would also agree that accounts with no posts, and no activity (i.e. no posts or comments), would be deleted after 90 days. Leave the content alone otherwise.

As to other ideas, there have been tons of good suggestions thrown out, and I agree with most of them. I will also put my two cents in that Facebook is not the answer. I am another who refuses to use it.
Permalink
| May 22, 2017, 9:00 pm
Quick thing to suggest; if a massive site overhaul is underway, try to keep some of the aesthetic. Modernise it a bit, but I'd be sad to see the black brick pattern go.
Permalink
| May 22, 2017, 9:39 pm
Quoting Declan Muller
Quick thing to suggest; if a massive site overhaul is underway, try to keep some of the aesthetic. Modernise it a bit, but I'd be sad to see the black brick pattern go.


I agree 100%. Maybe I'm just used to it, but I really like how the site looks. It's clean, easy to navigate, and lets us focus on the builds. While I've heard a couple people say they prefer how Flickr looks, I've heard many dozens more saying the uploader doesn't work, their group's been hacked, or the site's crashed. Changing how MOCpages looks would likely lose more members than it gains, whereas making the site run smoother will benefit everyone. (And if Sean is ever willing to let people help with that, I'm way better at working on the underlying code than I am at design, so I'd target functionality first anyway.)
Permalink
| May 22, 2017, 11:08 pm
As has already been said, an overhaul of the site is incredibly unlikely, so I think it would be best to focus on fixing existing issues, rather then creating a wishlist of how we wish the site would LOOK. Let's get it working again first and maybe then we can focus on what it looks like. (Although if it does get to that stage, I am also in agreement that I like the way it looks.)
--Blast--
Permalink
| May 23, 2017, 6:31 am
Potential heads up - looking at the photos section of my homepage, it tells me I have 1185 photos taking up 255MB of space on the server. This is not good at all - with my 107 MOCs, that means each MOC has on average 2.38MB of photos alone.

And yet, when you the size of the files you actually load from MOCpages, an entire MOC is well under 1MB, usually under 0.2MB.

This means that MOCpages saves uncompressed files to the server, and compresses it for us every time we view a MOC.

If you're not a web dev this might not sound like a big deal, but in terms of server space alone we're looking at a factor of 20+ times the space. Instead of the 20-60GB that I thought MOCpages might need, it currently needs 500-1500GB. Servers that hold that much space are usually either much, much more expensive, or much, much less performant. That's a big, big problem for both server costs and performance.

Additionally, every time someone visits a page, the server has to do work to compress the page before sending it to you. This is less of a concern, but it's certainly not optimal - it's doing the same thing over and over again, and if the site's busy that could cause slow downs and crashes.

So that explains why Sean's using high end servers right now - he needs the sheer power to deal with how the site works. But if MOCpages compressed the images when they were uploaded to the server, it'd only need to compress things once, and it would reduce server space requirements dramatically.

At this point I'm almost ready to apply to work for whoever Sean's tech guy is if that's what it takes to work on the site. There are so many things that could be improved to make the site stabler and less expensive to run, and while they might take a bit of time to implement it's better done sooner than later.

EDIT: Part of this is also because MOCpages stores a larger image that you can view when you click an image, and a smaller one for when you view the full MOC. The larger image takes up way more space.

This does mean that the overall size of the site may be more than I guessed was possible, so I'd propose a second strategy.

Have two servers. One that's optimized for performance, and serves the majority of requests, and one that's optimized for holding lots of files, and serves only the large images. People don't click to view the larger size all that much, so it doesn't need to be that impressive.

EDIT 2: Looking into it more, it does seem that MOCpages might need a more expensive hosting solution, possibly in the $100-$200/month due to the sheer number of images on here, even with optimizations. Hard to say for sure without having the actual data, but that's my best guess at the moment.

Fortunately, I think I also underestimated MOCpages' ad revenue. Unless lots of people are using adblock, the traffic stats suggest that the site should be making $2000-$6000/month. Also could be off since I don't know the payout Adsense is giving here so I'm going by the average, but if the payout is close to the average then it would be closer to the high end of that figure.

So a $150/month server or whatever shouldn't be too bad if revenue is in that range. I'd be very, very surprised if MOCpages made under $1000/month, given the traffic. But again, who knows. Hopefully it makes plenty.

Maybe less for server costs if you shop around. I'm seeing some promising options in the $50/month range that might handle MOCpages nicely, up to around twice the current traffic. Ooh, just found one that looks really promising. At $47/month it should handle the current site nicely, and as much as double the traffic. Bump that to $97/month and I'd guess it'd handle 6-8 times the traffic MOCpages gets right now. Provided some changes are made to the site infrastructure, anyway. I don't know what kind of RAM and CPU specs the site needs right now, Apache's a RAM eater. On Nginx it should work perfectly.

And maybe server prices could be reduced with more optimizations. Hard to say. But for now, that's about all I can say without knowing more actual facts about the site.
Permalink
| May 23, 2017, 6:45 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist


I'd be VERY interested to know Sean's take on your analysis, which seems to a layperson insightful, given that you're considering the workings of MOCpages from the outside looking in. I certainly appreciate you taking the time that you have to think about it and share your perspective.

I saw just recently that Sean's got an opening of a travelling European exhibition coming up in Belgium next week. He didn't indicate whether of not he'd be there for the opening. (As a an artist I frequently DO attend that sort of thing.) I'm thinking about contacting him shortly there after about this thread and the conversations that have been taking place (assuming he hasn't seen them here on the site).

As for everyone, I'll leave this thread open for probably another week or so for additional commentary and thoughts. After that, I'll take a few days to compile/organize my own thoughts on how to best communicate with Sean.

Meanwhile, Luke I'm wondering if you wouldn't mind sharing your email with me so I can contact you directly if things progress. The end goal would be to allow you and Sean to converse directly, and see if anything might come from it. If you'd like to arrange for direct communication with me, feel free to send an email to mark@markkelsoart.com.

Permalink
| May 24, 2017, 8:40 am
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist
Potential heads up - looking at the photos section of my homepage, it tells me I have 1185 photos taking up 255MB of space on the server. This is not good at all - with my 107 MOCs, that means each MOC has on average 2.38MB of photos alone.

And yet, when you the size of the files you actually load from MOCpages, an entire MOC is well under 1MB, usually under 0.2MB.

This means that MOCpages saves uncompressed files to the server, and compresses it for us every time we view a MOC.

If you're not a web dev this might not sound like a big deal, but in terms of server space alone we're looking at a factor of 20+ times the space. Instead of the 20-60GB that I thought MOCpages might need, it currently needs 500-1500GB. Servers that hold that much space are usually either much, much more expensive, or much, much less performant. That's a big, big problem for both server costs and performance.

Additionally, every time someone visits a page, the server has to do work to compress the page before sending it to you. This is less of a concern, but it's certainly not optimal - it's doing the same thing over and over again, and if the site's busy that could cause slow downs and crashes.

So that explains why Sean's using high end servers right now - he needs the sheer power to deal with how the site works. But if MOCpages compressed the images when they were uploaded to the server, it'd only need to compress things once, and it would reduce server space requirements dramatically.

At this point I'm almost ready to apply to work for whoever Sean's tech guy is if that's what it takes to work on the site. There are so many things that could be improved to make the site stabler and less expensive to run, and while they might take a bit of time to implement it's better done sooner than later.

EDIT: Part of this is also because MOCpages stores a larger image that you can view when you click an image, and a smaller one for when you view the full MOC. The larger image takes up way more space.

This does mean that the overall size of the site may be more than I guessed was possible, so I'd propose a second strategy.

Have two servers. One that's optimized for performance, and serves the majority of requests, and one that's optimized for holding lots of files, and serves only the large images. People don't click to view the larger size all that much, so it doesn't need to be that impressive.

EDIT 2: Looking into it more, it does seem that MOCpages might need a more expensive hosting solution, possibly in the $100-$200/month due to the sheer number of images on here, even with optimizations. Hard to say for sure without having the actual data, but that's my best guess at the moment.

Fortunately, I think I also underestimated MOCpages' ad revenue. Unless lots of people are using adblock, the traffic stats suggest that the site should be making $2000-$6000/month. Also could be off since I don't know the payout Adsense is giving here so I'm going by the average, but if the payout is close to the average then it would be closer to the high end of that figure.

So a $150/month server or whatever shouldn't be too bad if revenue is in that range. I'd be very, very surprised if MOCpages made under $1000/month, given the traffic. But again, who knows. Hopefully it makes plenty.

Maybe less for server costs if you shop around. I'm seeing some promising options in the $50/month range that might handle MOCpages nicely, up to around twice the current traffic. Ooh, just found one that looks really promising. At $47/month it should handle the current site nicely, and as much as double the traffic. Bump that to $97/month and I'd guess it'd handle 6-8 times the traffic MOCpages gets right now. Provided some changes are made to the site infrastructure, anyway. I don't know what kind of RAM and CPU specs the site needs right now, Apache's a RAM eater. On Nginx it should work perfectly.

And maybe server prices could be reduced with more optimizations. Hard to say. But for now, that's about all I can say without knowing more actual facts about the site.


https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/03/google-jpeg-guetzli-encoder-file-size/

I saw this the other day. And all this talk about file size and servers reminded me of this. Not sure it's possible for use on the pages but it sounded cool.
Permalink
| May 24, 2017, 10:07 am
Quoting Clayton Marchetti

https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/03/google-jpeg-guetzli-encoder-file-size/

I saw this the other day. And all this talk about file size and servers reminded me of this. Not sure it's possible for use on the pages but it sounded cool.

I think we all know why you clicked on that site with that awesome pic of David Copperfield. XDDD

Seriously interesting, and I'm not referring the disco hair. Compression would retain the images, albeit at some possible cost to resolution, but the archival significance of the site would remain and would be a more palatable solution to the auto delete.
Permalink
| May 24, 2017, 10:34 am
Quoting Clayton Marchetti

https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/03/google-jpeg-guetzli-encoder-file-size/

I saw this the other day. And all this talk about file size and servers reminded me of this. Not sure it's possible for use on the pages but it sounded cool.


Very cool, that could indeed be handy, thanks for sharing!

I haven't used that, but just changing the settings on saving a file gave me about a 50% reduction in size with minimal quality loss.

Original MOCpages image: https://www.flickr.com/gp/lukeclarencevan/4Wh39M

Reduced quality image: https://www.flickr.com/gp/lukeclarencevan/53P2x3

If the Google algorithm can reduce it even further, we could be able to cut file sizes down by 60-80% overall with minimal sacrifices.

Even if we only cut file sizes by 50%, that should allow a $47/month server to handle the site for several more years at least. (Not counting traffic, higher traffic could require more expenses, but that's a good problem to have since the expenses should be far less than the additional revenue.)
Permalink
| May 24, 2017, 12:26 pm
Quoting matt rowntRee
I think we all know why you clicked on that site with that awesome pic of David Copperfield. XDDD

Seriously interesting, and I'm not referring the disco hair. Compression would retain the images, albeit at some possible cost to resolution, but the archival significance of the site would remain and would be a more palatable solution to the auto delete.


Yes I would not like to see older builds and conversations deleted. I have no idea how much this takes up probably very minuscule, but have you ever gone through "people that call you favorite " I had about a dozen that when I clicked on them there was nothing. No builds no favorite creations. Maybe those accounts could be deleted. Not sure how an auto delete could target just those accounts though.
Permalink
| May 24, 2017, 2:26 pm
Well, I couldn't see any noticeable difference in quality of the images with compression, although Luke's guy in the pic needs to work on his hair if he's going to keep up with Copperfield. :D

There is another issue that needs to be addressed, and it is more of a time frame in which to make changes here. With Verizon's buyout of Yahoo, there is a possibility that Flickr may be phased out. This is PURELY in rumor mode at this time and the administrators of Flickr have been reassuring everyone with rumblings that the site will continue. However, their answers to any questions have been a very vague blanket statement, the kind that avoid specificity for any legal sidestepping in the future, and certainly nothing official from anyone official.

It may just be paranoia stirred by the FTL idiocy of the interwebs, but if Sean IS willing to make changes, it is vital that they are of course appealing and the right ones, but more to the point that they are done soon to take advantage of a possible influx from Flickr. This also means that the tech side of these suggestions are more important and encompassing than "what we can do just to get by as we are now." Capacity will have to be MUCH higher than any of us are anticipating or comprehending and the quality with compression CANNOT be less than that offered by Flickr. No one will go towards less quality, only bigger and better.

In actuality, I feel like this information, even though it is only rumor, may put a damper on Sean's abilities and enthusiasm to do anything here. I think we are in fact looking at an investment of considerably more than $47/mo. There has been speculation over the years that he has been waiting for a buyout himself (again, simple rumor), and if either or both are the case then all our efforts here are moot.

Wow, that sounded really depressing overall. Have a happy Thursday! XD
Permalink
| May 25, 2017, 10:01 am
Quoting Matt


Hahaha, I love your sense of humor! XD

I do think having a "Premium" version of the site without ads could help bring in revenue. And if Flickr goes, I'll work twice as hard to keep this place alive!
Permalink
| May 25, 2017, 10:09 am
Quoting matt rowntRee
It may just be paranoia stirred by the FTL idiocy of the interwebs, but if Sean IS willing to make changes, it is vital that they are of course appealing and the right ones, but more to the point that they are done soon to take advantage of a possible influx from Flickr. This also means that the tech side of these suggestions are more important and encompassing than "what we can do just to get by as we are now." Capacity will have to be MUCH higher than any of us are anticipating or comprehending and the quality with compression CANNOT be less than that offered by Flickr. No one will go towards less quality, only bigger and better.


Ouch - yeah, if we need to host images that are as big as the ones on Flickr, we're looking at 10x or more the space needed. That'd be pricey.

On the other hand, I don't think we necessarily need to compete with Flickr on quality of images, even if Flickr gets shut down. Flickr needs such big images since each page only has one photo - if you want to look at details, you need to zoom in. With MOCpages, we can have tons of images on a page, so we can include close-ups of all the details. So while bigger images would be nice, I think most people can get by with less (of course, if it ends up making sense financially I'd be all for more quality).

I agree 100% about getting the site ready to handle an influx. Summer's traditionally busier anyway, and if people do come from Flickr we need to have an uploader that works for everyone without spending half an hour configuring things, and a server that can handle the traffic. The uploader's a definite, as for the server I have no idea how good the current server is.

If we end up needing to host big images like Flickr, it might end up being cheaper to build a server and co-locate it at a datacenter rather than renting a server. Bigger upfront cost, but more customizable and once it's built you're only paying for power and bandwidth (which still isn't cheap, but it's generally cheaper than paying for power, bandwidth, and hardware rental). That way you can fill it to the brim with big hard-drives, and upgrade them whenever.
Permalink
| May 25, 2017, 11:33 am
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist


Don't forget about brickshelf.

Personally I don't see flickr going anywhere, but if MOCpages at least came up with a user-friendly way to embed brickshelf images (even a simple cut-and-paste HTML example with an [insert your link here] text), that would be an improvement. Now a collaboration, that would be interesting.
Permalink
| May 25, 2017, 6:33 pm
Quoting von erics

Don't forget about brickshelf.

Personally I don't see flickr going anywhere, but if MOCpages at least came up with a user-friendly way to embed brickshelf images (even a simple cut-and-paste HTML example with an [insert your link here] text), that would be an improvement. Now a collaboration, that would be interesting.


Brickshelf still exists? Wow, I didn't know that, that's cool. Back in the day, like in 2002, it seems that MOCpages used Brickshelf to host all their images, and didn't have any uploader of their own. So that indeed could be a potential back up plan - returning to MOCpages' roots.

Permalink
| May 25, 2017, 8:11 pm
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist

Brickshelf still exists? Wow, I didn't know that, that's cool. Back in the day, like in 2002, it seems that MOCpages used Brickshelf to host all their images, and didn't have any uploader of their own. So that indeed could be a potential back up plan - returning to MOCpages' roots.

Doesn't Brickshelf clear out random images though? If an image was related to a MOC but for the page and not of Lego it's basically gone.

I'd suggest Imgur, however it doesn't help the main image.
Permalink
| May 25, 2017, 8:16 pm
I think the technical issues are on the table now and completely in Sean's court to deal with as he sees fit or is capable or can afford. There is another issue plaguing this site that must be addressed. That 800 pound gorilla in the corner needs to be acknowledged.

His name happens to be "An Unwelcoming Community."

I think it's time that everyone here in the Mocpages community needs to ask why builders left. If you think it's the technical problems or the low resolution of the pics, then you are delusional. Those are merely pleasant excuses that are easier to pass off and accept than the truth. That truth is simply this: Because this is a child friendly site, it is not necessary for anyone to act like a child. The hacking problems, tantrums, zealotry, spamming, the muzzling of dissident or questioning voices, and the ganging up on builders that push the medium forward regardless of individual sensibilities are ALL inexcusable. If you do not see any single one of these as a problem, then YOU are the problem.

The site needs to change on the back end, that's entirely in Sean's hands if he's willing to engage. The site needs to change in the field more so, that is entirely up to us. ALL OF US.

I'm not one to rile the troops or lead any battle cries, unless it's against Clayton's penchant for disco haired magicians, but there needs to be a necessary shift in mindsets and it must happen in order for this all to be worth the effort. It must be self and peer policed in order to work.

Child safe does not mean child like. We need to welcome EVERY artist here and shun those who shun them. It is art and expression, fight with every ounce of your existence to LET IT BE. I do and will, I'm not here on this rock only to eat Doritos and drink whisky.
Permalink
| May 25, 2017, 10:21 pm
Quoting matt rowntRee
I think the technical issues are on the table now and completely in Sean's court to deal with as he sees fit or is capable or can afford. There is another issue plaguing this site that must be addressed. That 800 pound gorilla in the corner needs to be acknowledged.

...

Well i very much agree with you that the unwelcoming community-thing is a part of the problem. However, i don't believe it's the entire problem :-)

When i went inactive a couple of years ago, the main reason was the uploader-problems. And when i came back, i noticed the hacking of groups-problem as the first thing and thought "That's not good!".

After a while being back though, i did notice the other thing as well, and i did think that this was very problematic too. Personally, i wouldn't care if people left what i thought was "unwelcoming comments" targeted at me, but i certainly acknowledge that others would be bothered by it and leave.

That said, i agree that something must be done to address this problem too :-)
Permalink
| May 26, 2017, 1:48 am
Quoting matt rowntRee

Whilst I agree with you completely on the freedom of expression and artistic interpretation point, and also that child-friendly doesn't mean child-like, the fact that MOCpages is a site that not only encourages children to join, but is primarily aimed at children (due to the simple fact that Lego is a toy), means that there are always going to be child-like activities going on.
Don't get me wrong, I would love to not have whinging kids and childish hackers and people who moan at stuff they don't like, but these are just things that come with kids. If we have kids on the site, we're going to have 'child-like' behavior. You just have to be patient with the moaning and punish the bad behavior (hacking etc.)
We're never going to be free of the child-like behavior, but I think the reason it is a focus at the moment is because (I suspect) there are more kids/teens here than there are adults. We're in the minority, hence it seems like there is a lot of childishness going around. The reason there are more kids than adults all comes back to the technical issues. The problems have driven the adult community away to other sites that they know work better. Kids don't have that knowledge of other sites.
So I'm hoping that once (fingers crossed) the technical issues get resolved, and we're back up and running at full strength again, adults will start to return to MOCpages and balance out the number of kids and in doing so, create a less child-like environment.
--Blast--
Permalink
| May 26, 2017, 8:04 am
Quoting --R.K. Blast--

I'm sorry, Blast, but I am way too pragmatic to believe that anyone would choose to return to this Lord of the Flies island just because the Titanic got a brand new Band-aid. It may be a pretty place and the vessel might be brilliant; however, if sacrificing Piggy is the norm and that brilliant boat is prone to sinking, I'll surely pass on that adventure. As will everyone else looking for a means to relax from their normally chaotic, busy, adult lives.
Permalink
| May 26, 2017, 11:03 am
Some good points Matt. Stuff like hacking and spamming I agree with completely (in that it's a big issue).

But is the community on the whole unwelcoming, due to childishness? I'm not sure I'd go that far. Of course, I joined MOCpages when I was 12, so perhaps my perspective is very different from that of other AFOLs who joined well into adulthood.

For me, I don't see much childishness pervading the pages where you don't want it. It's generally constrained to groups that are specifically aimed at YFOLs/TFOLs, and their creations. Like you'll notice there's more levity and childishness in the comments section of a LoM build or similar (there's more extreme examples than LoM, but I'm not overly familiar with them), whereas you experience a very different comment section in other MOCs.

If you're not part of those groups, I don't think you really encounter it much. We have a decent segmentation. There's very active YFOL/TFOL crowd who have groups with tens of thousands of comments, a contest every week, and long running storyline MOCs. Then there's the more restrained AFOL crowd - a couple groups with a comment or two each month, a build here and there, but good friendships between one another despite a relative lack of activity.

And the groups do interact - I see tons of fantastic creations by younger builders, just as many younger builders like and comment on AFOL builds. When they do so, I find they're generally respectful of the AFOL's creation, and don't say anything too silly. And nothing wrong with a little silliness though - Matt's arguably sillier than most YFOLs half the time. ;)

I think the important thing is to keep things malice free. Light hearted stuff is fine, even if it's silly. Maybe you roll your eyes at some of it, but it usually doesn't cause you any issues or drive others away.

What does is malice. Malice breeds malice - serious rivalries between groups, LEGO genres, or age ranges can cause animosity that makes MOCpages toxic. I don't think there's much of that, luckily. The closest I've seen is the YFOL Christian Homeschoolers vs NSFW builds, but that's just something you get with kids, and sometimes it's even justified. I don't think there's real malice there, and while it's not optimal I think overall things are going well.

So for now, that doesn't seem like a huge issue. People aren't actively trying to drive others away for the most part, and the community's still friendly and light hearted.

What's more of an issue, in my opinion, is lack of interaction. If you're returning to MOCpages after a 5 year hiatus, or coming here from Flickr where you have a decent following, it can be discouraging to see how little traction your posts get.

Now, part of this is on the builder. If you aren't adding your MOC to groups and commenting on other people's stuff, you can't expect to get many likes or comments. You need to create something truly phenomenal to stand on its own without you driving traffic to it.

However, a large part is due to the community being smaller and less proactive. Now, it seems like if you hit 30-50 likes you'll get in the top four creations for the month on the homepage, when back in the day it'd take 80-120. If you spend a month on a build, and get 30 likes, that hurts. Especially when you have worse creations from years ago that got 100+ likes, or posts on Flickr with the same.

It's not something we like to admit, because it's vain to talk about how likes and comments matter. We're supposed to do it for the love of the art and all that. But there's no denying that everyone loves a little attention, and a lacklustre reception to a MOC is demotivating. Especially for those returning builders or Flickr users, who may be the most important people to appeal too.

And of course, this is a self replicating issue. If someone feels like the site's not worth using and leaves, that's one fewer person who might have been liking and commenting on stuff, so now it's even more likely that other people will leave.

The solution is to have a larger userbase, or a userbase who more frequently trawls through the newest creations and likes and comments on good ones. Ideally both.

If you get lots of likes and comments, you feel good. You're feeling good because of this site, so you're more likely to come back to this site again and again, and keep posting builds. Additionally, since you're here more, you're more likely to like and comment on other people's work. And then they like yours, so you feel good again.

That's a great cycle, and one we need to promote. But the only way to promote it is through the work of browsing creations and liking and commenting on them. That takes time, so a lot of AFOLs have a hard time doing that. But even 10 minutes a day can let you cover 5-10 creations, and that makes a difference. A big difference. And TFOLs and YFOLs tend to have even more time, and they also have less of a following so there's both more motive and more ability to comment on lots of new MOCs. But they can't just congregate in a group like LoM and ignore the outside world - if someone wants to improve MOCpages, gain new followers of their own, and learn more LEGO techniques, they need to broaden the scope of their interests and look at MOCs from a variety of genres and groups.

So for me, I'd push for fixing the group hacking and creation spamming issues, but also work on getting everyone to be more active in finding good creations and commenting on them. Ultimately, that's the cornerstone of the entire community, and if MOCs get a healthy amount of attention MOCpages will be a lot more attractive to builders.
Permalink
| May 26, 2017, 3:55 pm
So, unwelcoming, eh? I am not sure I agree with that. Unresponsive at times, I'll grant you.

I do see the problems with certain disagreements over art. I'm a live and let live (or in this case build and let build) and I fall heavily on the side of free expression as far as what I want to see allowed here. I've seen some of the vitriol sent at various members and I do not like it when I do see it. Sometimes it's couched in personal morals, sometimes its in the "for the children" language, neither sways my view. In the end, the points made that if we're going to have a community that exists between YFOL, TFOL, and AFOL, we all need to be a bit aware that everyone views things differently and that difference is part of the strength of the community, and should not be divisive. We all need to work on that.

As to the kids and teens being childish, well, yeah. So what? The levity and energy that they bring is welcome in my book just as the avant-garde art is. We need their enthusiasm and ideas. Yes, it gets out of hand occasionally, but the vast bulk of the YFOL and TFOLs here are good kids and generally know when not to cross the lines and when they do you can gently rebuke them and they'll usually tone it down. There are always a few exceptions, but they're not a bad bunch, and they're far more responsive to builds than most of the AFOLs are. They need the AFOLs to temper them a bit, but we need them to keep us energized.

Finally, as to the whole issue of activity. I just passed 10,000 views on my 85 creations this month. I've never seen more than 13 likes on one of my builds, and I'm barely over 100 comments received since I started. So I know exactly where I stand in terms of responsive validation from the community. Some of this is on me. I traditionally eschewed groups, and I didn't view and comment on others posts as much as I could have. Activity begets activity. As I've gotten more active this year, I've gotten more responses. Do I get frustrated that things I spent months building have a handful of likes and maybe a hundred or so views? Yes, emphatically so! But there are members on here who are making a concerted effort to comment more and like more to keep the activity moving. We need to all emulate that and spend time looking at things, myself included. To this I suggest that people seriously consider their own interaction. Be proactive in encouraging others, and look at things that aren't your normal genre. Some things that have a hard to ID profile picture can turn out to be amazing builds. But it will take this community working constructively to build that kind of responsiveness and it takes all of us, YFOL, TFOL, and AFOL, engaging with each other.

I'm done rambling for now.
Permalink
| May 26, 2017, 5:14 pm
Addressing the issue on activity and comments/likes, I feel that one of major changes we actually need is an easier "like" system. Currently, it takes about 30 seconds to like a creation, and you're given an option to like it from 1-5 smiles, which doesn't even matter. I would like to see a system where we can just click a button to give it a like and then go, not having to go through a separate page or form or whatnot, just click "like" and keep reading.
Permalink
| May 26, 2017, 5:45 pm
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist

Nail on the head, Luke.
--Blast--
Permalink
| May 26, 2017, 7:05 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Drahcir Nosnevets
Addressing the issue on activity and comments/likes, I feel that one of major changes we actually need is an easier "like" system. Currently, it takes about 30 seconds to like a creation, and you're given an option to like it from 1-5 smiles, which doesn't even matter. I would like to see a system where we can just click a button to give it a like and then go, not having to go through a separate page or form or whatnot, just click "like" and keep reading.

Yeah, that's been something I've been thinking about as well. Don't know how difficult that would be to set up on Sean's end, but I feel like it would certainly be helpful.

Permalink
| May 26, 2017, 8:52 pm
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist
Some good points Matt. Stuff like hacking and spamming I agree with completely (in that it's a big issue).

But is the community on the whole unwelcoming, due to childishness? I'm not sure I'd go that far. Of course, I joined MOCpages when I was 12, so perhaps my perspective is very different from that of other AFOLs who joined well into adulthood.

...


What does is malice. Malice breeds malice - serious rivalries between groups, LEGO genres, or age ranges can cause animosity that makes MOCpages toxic. I don't think there's much of that, luckily. The closest I've seen is the YFOL Christian Homeschoolers vs NSFW builds, but that's just something you get with kids, and sometimes it's even justified. I don't think there's real malice there, and while it's not optimal I think overall things are going well.

...

So for me, I'd push for fixing the group hacking and creation spamming issues, but also work on getting everyone to be more active in finding good creations and commenting on them. Ultimately, that's the cornerstone of the entire community, and if MOCs get a healthy amount of attention MOCpages will be a lot more attractive to builders.

This pretty much sums up how i personally feel. To me, the main problem when it comes to the interaction-part of this site, is the very one you mention in the second paragraph i qouted here from you. While i very much disagree with almost all of this group's critiques of these builds, i also have an understanding for the differing opinions of people in general.

That was why i suggested the advanced PG-rating system, but i fear it will be too much of a change in the coding for the site to be a realistsic suggestion.

The last paragraph i quoted here i totally agree with! I would add the uploader issues to your list of needed fixes as well, but i feel that that issue is almost a too obvious fix to mention, so i gguess that's why you left it out :-) As for increased activity from (particularly AFOL) users, i agree with you there and am personally trying to do my own part in that by commenting on at least a couple of builds every time i'm here :-)

EDIT: As for the "childishness", I personally don't mind it that much. It can even be fun to watch at times. And even though i am 41, i too can get rather silly at times :-D
Permalink
| May 27, 2017, 2:17 am
Well, after reading through latest comments I have formed a response.
As is being said quiet a lot, not many people comment on creations now, I believe I am some of those people. I am not one of the MP users who look through the "Everyone's Lego creations" page and comment on a bunch of them. I will look at them, but I usually don't read too much of the description or comment.
This is partly due to laziness, though I also believe it's because of the way commenting is being handled. It takes a moderately large amount of time to comment on one single creation. First you have to click "add comment" then you have to rate it, then type it, then preview it, it is only then when you finally get to post it.
Like someone else said, this would be much easier if you had a simple "click to like, click to add comment" system, in which all of the actions keep you on the creation page.
If this system was implemented, it may get more people to comment of builds, and, by extension, keep others from leaving solely because of unpopularity.
EDIT: This isn't about the "childish" issue, only about the "activity" issue.
Permalink
| May 27, 2017, 8:04 am
Silly will ALWAYS be encouraged and expressed by me, it was not what I meant when I described the "unwelcoming" community which seemed to be interpreted as "childish."

A perfect example of what I was explaining can be seen in the two threads started here earlier today and have gone on well beyond the point of pure absurdity. Please read them through, noting that Mark resolved it IN THE SECOND STATEMENT, and consider who could look at that bloated bombast and think, "Yeah, I'd like to return here and show my mocs. These are people with valid points, logical arguments, and sound critiques that I can really explore my own growth and expansion with." -pffft-

That is the devolution of debate and I don't see anything resolved other than Sir Flexalot apologizing, which I noticed was not accepted BTW. Does it seriously take a mile of thread to get nowhere in this group every time someone has a beef with someone else? Am I out of line in telling all those involved to grow up? Again, is it not far off from my primary assessment of the "child-like" behavior prevalent on MP? I don't need to spend much time to find similar instances here in this group, in other groups, and on individual mocs. Perception and delivery are always important, more so on the interwebs; but, for the love of god, what will it take to make this group ACTUALLY HELPFUL? All it is now is a whine and moan fest, no wonder Andros has had it here. How many more of those tiresome tirades are we all going to have to endure to get to fixing ACTUAL problems here? Why couldn't this be taken care of in a private group away from the rest of us that have VERY LITTLE TO NO INTEREST IN YOUR FRAGILE SENSIBILITIES?!?

Yeah, it's totally the uploader that drove people away. :P

To Allan, Blast, Luke, and James specifically, I agree with everything you have said regarding the child aspect of the pages. Childish, to me, is not the same as child-like. Perhaps I should correct my word to be immature. The problem there is that there is the implied notion that this behavior has yet to be learned. As with the other threads, I think there is more than ignorance of the subject, and one of a more solid REJECTION of being open, reasonable, considerate, and respectful. And to that, I can see it as only unwelcoming.

But again, read through those threads, and any regarding P. Andrei and Bricks Noir, and then ask yourself as an AFOL, "Why would I want anything to do with posting to this community?" Likes or not, uploader efficacy or not, resolution or not, constant death and resuscitation of the site or not, and any other technical issue or not. A house is NOT a home unless those in there make it such.

matt
Permalink
| May 27, 2017, 8:41 pm
Quoting matt rowntRee


I have to agree on that - I actually just came here to revise my stance with the latest threads as an example.

A question was asked, it was answered - fantastic. But then it turned into a lengthy mess that has no business being in this group. Maybe some other chat group. But I agree - seeing stuff like that here just makes you kind of shake your head and walk away.

That's definitely a potential issue, and perhaps we could simply have more moderators here to lock topics when they're concluded or delete comments that are disruptive. Andros is great, yet there's only so much one guy can do (and I'm sure he doesn't want to be doing everything).

So in that context, I'm 100% with you. Keep the discussions relevant - no one on MOCpages Help is looking to see arguments about a YFOL's Bionicle religion or whatever.

So while I would still say that it affects fewer people than the uploader or group hacks, it seems like something with a relatively simple remedy, at least for this group, and so it's definitely worth working on.
Permalink
| May 27, 2017, 8:56 pm
Please hold, your call is very important to us.

Yeah, automatic moderation is another thing that needs fixing around here. good grief, really? George Carlin would have a field day on this site! XD
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| May 27, 2017, 9:31 pm
As I stated, there are always exceptions and of course, someone has to go prove the exception as I defend folks. I think it is high time that some of these things were put to bed once and for all.

A MOC is a MOC. Just because you don't like/understand/appreciate it, does not grant you license to attack the creator. Those threads should be locked and frankly deleted at this point. In the vein of weird news, we've been over this enough times that it is time to stop.

There is nothing on forums that is so divisive as religion and politics, and NEITHER belongs here. If YOU are having a personal issue with a MOC because of your own sensibilities, then don't view it, certainly don't comment on it, and definitely don't keep after it.

Several members of our community are owed, in my opinion, apologies for our failure as a community to put an end to this. We should not be dragging P. and Bricks through things repeatedly, nor should snits over joke religions be at anyway involved in the helpdesk.

It needs to be remembered that LEGO is an international, multi-cultural, and diverse platform. That means you are going to see things that aren't going to fit with your world view.

I don't want to lose anyone from the community at large, but a few of you need to take a couple days off to think about how to improve your ability to interact with folks here.
Permalink
| May 27, 2017, 10:52 pm
Quoting matt rowntRee
Please hold, your call is very important to us.

Yeah, automatic moderation is another thing that needs fixing around here. good grief, really? George Carlin would have a field day on this site! XD

Hahaha, yes he certainly would :-D I pretty much agree with your previous statement too, though when it comes to the impact on the site i agree more with Luke that it does have an impact but perhaps less so than the technical issues. That might be because i haven't noticed before, but it seems to me that this problem has only grown to be a serious one within the last year or so.

And about those two new threads.. Personally i think the whole topic should never have been discussed, but the arguing that followed Marks response could perhaps be avoided in the future if the email-solution for 'sensitive' reports were to be implemented. Then no one besides the admins would know that someone attempted to get the MOC banned :-)
Permalink
| May 28, 2017, 2:33 am
Anther one or two little nice improments to the site-

-moderators can actullay lock threads.
They can't at the moment, due to a glitch.

-admins can delete thread, and/or all the comments in them.

Permalink
| May 28, 2017, 4:43 am
Quoting James Douglas
Anther one or two little nice improments to the site-

-moderators can actullay lock threads.
They can't at the moment, due to a glitch.

-admins can delete thread, and/or all the comments in them.

Good suggestions! And i think they wouldn't be difficult to implement, as they wouldn't require much in terms of programming.
Permalink
| May 28, 2017, 5:01 am
I have also heard one or two people mention a blocking system.

I'm not really sure if that would be neccisary, but I guess it would solve many of the problems parent-FOLs, KFOLs, and certain TFOLS are having with certain builders.

And there are, I guess, one or two people who I don't like very much that I probably would block.

But then, that raises the questions- do you need to block people on what is meant to be a child friendly site? And what would be the specifics of this blocking system?
Permalink
| May 28, 2017, 5:07 am
Quoting James Douglas
I have also heard one or two people mention a blocking system.

I'm not really sure if that would be neccisary, but I guess it would solve many of the problems parent-FOLs, KFOLs, and certain TFOLS are having with certain builders.

And there are, I guess, one or two people who I don't like very much that I probably would block.

But then, that raises the questions- do you need to block people on what is meant to be a child friendly site? And what would be the specifics of this blocking system?

I'm not entirely sure i know where i stand on a blocking-system. While i see the advantage in being able to block pursuers (right word?), i don't know if those are a real problem here. There is both the option to delete people's comments on your builds, and the option to have people banned from the site if they bully somebody. It would also require more extensive programming, so while it could be a good idea, i'm not sure if it's going to happen - even if we do get the other fixes made.

That said, your suggestion along with an improved PG-system could be a nice thing to see implemented to avoid the arguments that arise in cases with controversial builds and/or builders :-)
Permalink
| May 28, 2017, 9:43 am
1. More power to the admins
2. A central counsel
3. Auto delete
4. Topical advertising
5. Age restrictions
6. More filtration

I detailed these ideas out in my novel :P

http://www.moc-pages.com/group_conversation.php?id=2600&topicid=106147#comment-1710208

The ability to delete comments doesn't erase the fact that they have already been read. Giving the added option of "Ban comments from this builder forever" will stop much of the nonsense, bullying, spamming, and hurt feelings.

The age restrictions would allow people like Bricks Noir to post to the much harder to offend AFOL corner of the site. The immature builders won't be offended because they won't be able to see it.

The result would be far less nonsensical rant threads here. Additionally, with a central counsel, complaints can be taken up there to make the MOCpages Help group actually... Oh, what's the word I'm thinking of? OH, yeah! HELP. (good thing it's there in the title and not something like "complaint department, please take a number.")
Permalink
| May 28, 2017, 10:28 am
Quoting matt rowntRee
The age restrictions would allow people like Bricks Noir to post to the much harder to offend AFOL corner of the site. The immature builders won't be offended because they won't be able to see it.


With the age restriction, how far would this go? Just blocking the thumbnail image of PG-13+ builds, or something more?

We already have it so that you need to confirm that you want to see a more mature build, the thumbnail's the only thing that sneaks past that.

And I'm not sure I'd want to have it so teenagers can't see mature builds - plenty of younger people are totally fine with NSFW stuff, so the opt-in system's pretty good. Just gotta hide the thumbnail to make it work perfectly, in my opinion. (With the added benefit that that would be an insanely easy fix to implement.)
Permalink
| May 28, 2017, 1:37 pm
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist
Quoting matt rowntRee
The age restrictions would allow people like Bricks Noir to post to the much harder to offend AFOL corner of the site. The immature builders won't be offended because they won't be able to see it.


With the age restriction, how far would this go? Just blocking the thumbnail image of PG-13+ builds, or something more?

We already have it so that you need to confirm that you want to see a more mature build, the thumbnail's the only thing that sneaks past that.

And I'm not sure I'd want to have it so teenagers can't see mature builds - plenty of younger people are totally fine with NSFW stuff, so the opt-in system's pretty good. Just gotta hide the thumbnail to make it work perfectly, in my opinion. (With the added benefit that that would be an insanely easy fix to implement.)

Perhaps the thing to be done is to switch around what is censored to normal viewers.

Right now the icon is showing and the title is the thing obscured, even the MOCcist's name.

I think that having it so that the icon is replaced by a "mature content" logo but with the title (or at least the MOCcist's name) for everyone to see, would be better in this regard, as the big issue everyone has is that you can still see the MOC via icon, even when you're on safe browsing mode.

I guess that's kind of not fair on the artist, having their picture replaced with a generic one, but it doesn't seem to me that unreasonable a compromise, given that's how it works on other sites like Deviant Art.

I do agree with you that people should still have the choice to view it regardless, given that gives everyone the freedom to either see it or not, depending on whether they care.

I'm sure someone's already made that suggestion before, about censoring the image instead of the title, but if the censorship HAS to be upped then this seems to me to be the fairest way to do it.
Permalink
| May 28, 2017, 2:19 pm
Quoting matt rowntRee

Hehe, complaint department.. You're right, that's what it turns into sometimes :-D

But you do raise some very good points to ponder. Perhaps your council-idea, combined with an email-solution and an advanced PG system could solve the social interaction problems plaguing the site currently? :-)
Permalink
| May 28, 2017, 2:31 pm
Oh, and i didn't think of James' suggestion about blocking users in the way you describe Matt, so perhaps it WOULD be a good idea :-)
Permalink
| May 28, 2017, 2:35 pm
I am the last person to deprive anyone of any exposure to art of any kind, or the opportunity of critique and expansion. The thumbnail definitely needs to be remedied, but even with that fixed and a PG warning ahead of it, there seems to ALWAYS be someone, who is easily offended, overzealous, claiming to fight "for the children", trying to impose their own moralities and religion and tastes in art with total disregard for the builder's own, still too tempted to click past the filter looking for a fight.

It should be a red line per age group (to be determined) with the decision to post to younger or older groups determined by the builder as a selection on the creation page at the builder's discretion.

Some builders are fine with the controversy, some are not. Plus, when there is an issue, rather than having an artist completely remove a moc from the site (appalling in my opinion), they will be able to simply remove it from that particular age group. If there is still an issue in the adult group, deal with it. There are no children there so any argument policing "for the children" is moot. At that point martyrdom is laughable. Well, more so than usual.

Language filters too. These are set absurdly high to the point where some words that are NOT remotely offensive are red flagged. In the adult age group, total free speech should be treated similarly. AND filtered on the thumbnail if necessary.
Permalink
| May 28, 2017, 3:12 pm
Quoting Wertman 8
Perhaps the thing to be done is to switch around what is censored to normal viewers.

Right now the icon is showing and the title is the thing obscured, even the MOCcist's name.

I think that having it so that the icon is replaced by a "mature content" logo but with the title (or at least the MOCcist's name) for everyone to see, would be better in this regard, as the big issue everyone has is that you can still see the MOC via icon, even when you're on safe browsing mode.

I guess that's kind of not fair on the artist, having their picture replaced with a generic one, but it doesn't seem to me that unreasonable a compromise, given that's how it works on other sites like Deviant Art.

I do agree with you that people should still have the choice to view it regardless, given that gives everyone the freedom to either see it or not, depending on whether they care.

I'm sure someone's already made that suggestion before, about censoring the image instead of the title, but if the censorship HAS to be upped then this seems to me to be the fairest way to do it.

I think there should be a selection of different censorship options that can be chosen. All of them would give a warning, but one would just block the title, one would just block the title pic, and another would block both. Of course, moderators and admins should be given the ability to force a certain blocking option if the creator breaks site rules and doesn't block a clearly offending title/thumbnail.

Also, on the topic of censorship and offending other users. There should be a private flagging option, in which a user can flag a post or comment they think breaks site rules, and can write a *private* explanation of their problem that a site moderator or admin can read and solve privately between the flag-er, flag-ee and staff. We have seen clearly that even if there is an actual problem reported here, it instantly gets flooded with emotion and ranting. Being able to do this privately would completely solve this problem.

Permalink
| May 28, 2017, 3:30 pm
Quoting matt rowntRee
I am the last person to deprive anyone of any exposure to art of any kind, or the opportunity of critique and expansion. The thumbnail definitely needs to be remedied, but even with that fixed and a PG warning ahead of it, there seems to ALWAYS be someone, who is easily offended, overzealous, claiming to fight "for the children", trying to impose their own moralities and religion and tastes in art with total disregard for the builder's own, still too tempted to click past the filter looking for a fight.

It should be a red line per age group (to be determined) with the decision to post to younger or older groups determined by the builder as a selection on the creation page at the builder's discretion.

Some builders are fine with the controversy, some are not. Plus, when there is an issue, rather than having an artist completely remove a moc from the site (appalling in my opinion), they will be able to simply remove it from that particular age group. If there is still an issue in the adult group, deal with it. There are no children there so any argument policing "for the children" is moot. At that point martyrdom is laughable. Well, more so than usual.

Language filters too. These are set absurdly high to the point where some words that are NOT remotely offensive are red flagged. In the adult age group, total free speech should be treated similarly. AND filtered on the thumbnail if necessary.


Maybe I'm just heartless, but I feel like if you have easily rustled sensibilities and you click a PG-13 MOC, that's your problem. If you complain on the MOC, the builder can delete your comment. If you complain here, the mods can delete it. If the only way you're able to see something offensive is by specifically opting in to see it, the only person at fault is yourself, and if you insist on causing drama about it then you're harassing other users and can have your account suspended.
Permalink
| May 28, 2017, 3:39 pm
Quoting matt rowntRee
It should be a red line per age group (to be determined) with the decision to post to younger or older groups determined by the builder as a selection on the creation page at the builder's discretion.

I don't think the groups should be split between age groups. There is varying ranges of mental maturity. Some parents might be fine with letting their child see whatever MOC they want, whilst others may be more protective. Some TFOLs may not be offended by cussing and mature themes, whilst others may be.

I just think that it would be better to implement a different measurement other than just strict age barriers. A better rating system would be a bar from Green to Red.

Green = No offensive content to be found (Basically the majority of MOCs)

Yellow = Mild mature themes may be explored (Mild cussing, mild non-comic violence, slightly more mature discussion etc.)

Red = Mature themes explored (Basically everything else. Nudity, explicit violence and swearing etc.)

That's what I'd think would be ideal.
Permalink
| May 28, 2017, 3:41 pm
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist

Maybe I'm just heartless, but I feel like if you have easily rustled sensibilities and you click a PG-13 MOC, that's your problem. If you complain on the MOC, the builder can delete your comment. If you complain here, the mods can delete it. If the only way you're able to see something offensive is by specifically opting in to see it, the only person at fault is yourself, and if you insist on causing drama about it then you're harassing other users and can have your account suspended.

Then I too am heartless because I can't agree more with you on this point. Caviat emptor! If you click on it, then you have NO GROUNDS TO COMPLAIN. Going all high and mighty ain't ever going to cut it with people like you and me. ;)
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| May 28, 2017, 3:47 pm
Quoting Callum ~
I don't think the groups should be split between age groups. There is varying ranges of mental maturity. Some parents might be fine with letting their child see whatever MOC they want, whilst others may be more protective. Some TFOLs may not be offended by cussing and mature themes, whilst others may be.

I just think that it would be better to implement a different measurement other than just strict age barriers. A better rating system would be a bar from Green to Red.

Green = No offensive content to be found (Basically the majority of MOCs)

Yellow = Mild mature themes may be explored (Mild cussing, mild non-comic violence, slightly more mature discussion etc.)

Red = Mature themes explored (Basically everything else. Nudity, explicit violence and swearing etc.)

That's what I'd think would be ideal.

Yeah, I think that would work well.

I love all this. It's awesome. MOCpages isn't dead, and there's hope for a bright future!
Permalink
| May 28, 2017, 3:47 pm
Quoting Callum ~
I don't think the groups should be split between age groups. There is varying ranges of mental maturity. Some parents might be fine with letting their child see whatever MOC they want, whilst others may be more protective. Some TFOLs may not be offended by cussing and mature themes, whilst others may be.

I just think that it would be better to implement a different measurement other than just strict age barriers. A better rating system would be a bar from Green to Red.

Green = No offensive content to be found (Basically the majority of MOCs)

Yellow = Mild mature themes may be explored (Mild cussing, mild non-comic violence, slightly more mature discussion etc.)

Red = Mature themes explored (Basically everything else. Nudity, explicit violence and swearing etc.)

That's what I'd think would be ideal.

I like this.
Permalink
| May 28, 2017, 3:48 pm
Quoting Callum ~
I don't think the groups should be split between age groups. There is varying ranges of mental maturity. Some parents might be fine with letting their child see whatever MOC they want, whilst others may be more protective. Some TFOLs may not be offended by cussing and mature themes, whilst others may be.

I just think that it would be better to implement a different measurement other than just strict age barriers. A better rating system would be a bar from Green to Red.

Green = No offensive content to be found (Basically the majority of MOCs)

Yellow = Mild mature themes may be explored (Mild cussing, mild non-comic violence, slightly more mature discussion etc.)

Red = Mature themes explored (Basically everything else. Nudity, explicit violence and swearing etc.)

That's what I'd think would be ideal.

Agreed! Much better than my idea. If an update of the PG system will be part of the overhaul (if the overhaul happens that is), THIS should be what is implemented!
Permalink
| May 28, 2017, 3:54 pm
Quoting matt rowntRee
I am the last person to deprive anyone of any exposure to art of any kind, or the opportunity of critique and expansion. The thumbnail definitely needs to be remedied, but even with that fixed and a PG warning ahead of it, there seems to ALWAYS be someone, who is easily offended, overzealous, claiming to fight "for the children", trying to impose their own moralities and religion and tastes in art with total disregard for the builder's own, still too tempted to click past the filter looking for a fight.

It should be a red line per age group (to be determined) with the decision to post to younger or older groups determined by the builder as a selection on the creation page at the builder's discretion.

Some builders are fine with the controversy, some are not. Plus, when there is an issue, rather than having an artist completely remove a moc from the site (appalling in my opinion), they will be able to simply remove it from that particular age group. If there is still an issue in the adult group, deal with it. There are no children there so any argument policing "for the children" is moot. At that point martyrdom is laughable. Well, more so than usual.

Language filters too. These are set absurdly high to the point where some words that are NOT remotely offensive are red flagged. In the adult age group, total free speech should be treated similarly. AND filtered on the thumbnail if necessary.


"Total free speach".... What?

I'm afraid you've gone too far in my opinion. There will end up being three mocpages....mocpages.... Goodness! what is the plural for mocpages?

If your referring to "total free speach...." In Mocs? Okay, I guess that is ok.

But think- how many great, appropriate builds may be unaccesable to people who see a warning on them, simply because at the end of a perfectly clean build the builder posts "this was as hard as £#%*@ to make!"

But then again, if you are stup!d enough to write that knowing that you will loose a lot of views and likes because of it, then, well, you don't deserve the likes, do you?
Permalink
| May 28, 2017, 3:56 pm
Quoting Callum ~
I don't think the groups should be split between age groups. There is varying ranges of mental maturity. Some parents might be fine with letting their child see whatever MOC they want, whilst others may be more protective. Some TFOLs may not be offended by cussing and mature themes, whilst others may be.

I just think that it would be better to implement a different measurement other than just strict age barriers. A better rating system would be a bar from Green to Red.

Green = No offensive content to be found (Basically the majority of MOCs)

Yellow = Mild mature themes may be explored (Mild cussing, mild non-comic violence, slightly more mature discussion etc.)

Red = Mature themes explored (Basically everything else. Nudity, explicit violence and swearing etc.)

That's what I'd think would be ideal.

Very good ideas. Of all the ideas, I think some of Matt's (except for the party's disagreed with in the comment I'm replying to) and this are possibly the best I've seen here. I think a bit more specification could help, because nudity could offend people that strong language doesn't offend (I mentioned this in a previous comment)

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| May 28, 2017, 3:57 pm
Quoting Callum ~
I don't think the groups should be split between age groups. There is varying ranges of mental maturity. Some parents might be fine with letting their child see whatever MOC they want, whilst others may be more protective. Some TFOLs may not be offended by cussing and mature themes, whilst others may be.

I just think that it would be better to implement a different measurement other than just strict age barriers. A better rating system would be a bar from Green to Red.

Green = No offensive content to be found (Basically the majority of MOCs)

Yellow = Mild mature themes may be explored (Mild cussing, mild non-comic violence, slightly more mature discussion etc.)

Red = Mature themes explored (Basically everything else. Nudity, explicit violence and swearing etc.)

That's what I'd think would be ideal.


I like that. But maybe a "super Red" or something as well, because I wouldn't mind the odd (once or twice) usage of strong language in a moc, but if there's a %Ä$•*& and a •£&@% every other sentence it would start to annoy me.
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| May 28, 2017, 4:04 pm
Quoting Sir Flexalot
Very good ideas. Of all the ideas, I think some of Matt's (except for the party's disagreed with in the comment I'm replying to) and this are possibly the best I've seen here. I think a bit more specification could help, because nudity could offend people that strong language doesn't offend (I mentioned this in a previous comment)

Yeah I agree. Instead of the usual blanket statement of "Parental guidance suggested
This LEGO creation may not be suitable for young children." the actual MOCist should be allowed to leave their own description or pick from a number of options so people know exactly what they are going into.

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| May 28, 2017, 4:25 pm
Quoting James Douglas

I like that. But maybe a "super Red" or something as well, because I wouldn't mind the odd (once or twice) usage of strong language in a moc, but if there's a %Ä$•*& and a •£&@% every other sentence it would start to annoy me.

I think that could probably fit in with the "red" category. I've seen the F-bomb stuck in a few "parental guidence" MOCs before, which I think is totally fine, but not really in this current system, where it's either Non-PG or PG with no other variables or options.
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| May 28, 2017, 4:32 pm
Quoting James Douglas

"Total free speach".... What?

I'm afraid you've gone too far in my opinion. There will end up being three mocpages....mocpages.... Goodness! what is the plural for mocpages?

If your referring to "total free speach...." In Mocs? Okay, I guess that is ok.

But think- how many great, appropriate builds may be unaccesable to people who see a warning on them, simply because at the end of a perfectly clean build the builder posts "this was as hard as £#%*@ to make!"

But then again, if you are stup!d enough to write that knowing that you will loose a lot of views and likes because of it, then, well, you don't deserve the likes, do you?

Oh, dearest James, if having several Mocpages would allow me to avoid your misspellings, I would welcome it with open arms. :D

I speak frankly and bluntly, I use every bit of the language at my fingertips, I find that if it is multiple Mocpages that are needed in order for me to speak freely, then YES.

This power and right should be that of the builder's. If we are looking to make Mocpages a desirable destination, then it should be desirable for all. Including those of us prone to talk like sailors on the soberest of nights. If one is unable to see what the adults have posted, then patience is another aspect of learning to be done by the immature.
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| May 28, 2017, 5:41 pm
Quoting Sir Flexalot
Very good ideas. Of all the ideas, I think some of Matt's (except for the party's disagreed with in the comment I'm replying to) and this are possibly the best I've seen here. I think a bit more specification could help, because nudity could offend people that strong language doesn't offend (I mentioned this in a previous comment)

Oh my god. Seriously? The nudity again? I just have to ask why anyone would be offended by something so beautifully created by god or nature, or both or neither? (depending on your current beliefs) How does anyone take a shower in that case? Does your own body offend you? How about your dog running around all pants-less? And this is just Lego, a plastic toy, with a brazillion ways to connect the pieces. Is there some combination we should fear that will reign fire down from the heavens if we perchance unlock it? Will that fire burn our clothes off? (Now, there's a bit of a philosophical conundrum.)

Come on, please grow up and unlearn what you have learned. For the love of water slides, please, PLEASE, get over your modesty and understand that it is only skin.

Would it be easier if I post something that MAY BE INTERPRETED as a nude and call it "Nietzsche Contemplates Celestial Mechanics #7"? This is what Magritte taught us with the Treachery of Images and what Korzybski explained by "The map is not the territory."

If this is the sort of censorship in store for a single Mocpages, then definitely, absolutely, without question we need distinct lines drawn at specific age groups. I'm old enough not to need your fragile sensibilities policing what I can or cannot view or make.

You managed to prove my point, Flex.

Thank you?
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| May 28, 2017, 6:14 pm
Quoting matt rowntRee
Oh my god. Seriously? The nudity again? I just have to ask why anyone would be offended by something so beautifully created by god or nature, or both or neither? (depending on your current beliefs) How does anyone take a shower in that case? Does your own body offend you? How about your dog running around all pants-less? And this is just Lego, a plastic toy, with a brazillion ways to connect the pieces. Is there some combination we should fear that will reign fire down from the heavens if we perchance unlock it? Will that fire burn our clothes off? (Now, there's a bit of a philosophical conundrum.)

Come on, please grow up and unlearn what you have learned. For the love of water slides, please, PLEASE, get over your modesty and understand that it is only skin.

Would it be easier if I post something that MAY BE INTERPRETED as a nude and call it "Nietzsche Contemplates Celestial Mechanics #7"? This is what Magritte taught us with the Treachery of Images and what Korzybski explained by "The map is not the territory."

If this is the sort of censorship in store for a single Mocpages, then definitely, absolutely, without question we need distinct lines drawn at specific age groups. I'm old enough not to need your fragile sensibilities policing what I can or cannot view or make.

You managed to prove my point, Flex.

Thank you?



You just want an argument, he simply said "SOME PEOPLE MAY find nudity offensive..."

He stated a fact. Some people find nudity offensive.

And he only meant it as an example- "some people may find <topic> offensive but not <topic> offensive.

he was simply making a point and giving an example to support his point. I don't think he had a malicious grand scheme behind his example. I would guess it was just the 2 first things that offend people that happenend to pop into his head.

You know, in the past minuite my opinion of you has dropped dramatically. Your acting like the people your preaching to.

Well done on proving your own point.*

Thank yourself.

I think Flexalots deserves an apology.

* not neccisarily this point, but other points you and others mentioned earlier, about people overreacting, being childish, being easily angered/offended, and just..well. Shouting at people for no good reason.

However, I expect you just misread it, and we'll all just move on in a minuite.
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| May 28, 2017, 6:26 pm
When a point is made repeatedly, it is called an agenda; and in this forum with the topics at hand, it needs to be stifled. I'm not here to debate, I'm here to fix this site; and you would know if "I just wanted to argue." I do not.

Now, if you and Daniel wish to add to the possible options for improving and fixing the problems here, I am more than open and know you guys are more than capable. As is Flex. However, if you are simply here to defend the indefensible and provide a "yeah" on an obtuse tangent, that is not constructive.
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| May 28, 2017, 7:55 pm
Quoting matt rowntRee
When a point is made repeatedly, it is called an agenda; and in this forum with the topics at hand, it needs to be stifled. I'm not here to debate, I'm here to fix this site; and you would know if "I just wanted to argue." I do not.

Now, if you and Daniel wish to add to the possible options for improving and fixing the problems here, I am more than open and know you guys are more than capable. As is Flex. However, if you are simply here to defend the indefensible and provide a "yeah" on an obtuse tangent, that is not constructive.

Forgive me, I'll try to be more helpful from now on. :)
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| May 28, 2017, 7:58 pm
Let me just hop in here and ask you all not to debate here. This thread was created by Mark to discuss ideas for renovating the site and keeping it attractive and active. This is the debate group on MP:

http://www.moc-pages.com/group.php/24987




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| May 28, 2017, 8:10 pm
Much as I agree that nudity shouldn't be an issue, I don't think we're ever going to change people by saying that.

The truth is, there are TFOLs (and YFOLs) who watch stuff like The Walking Dead, and yet their parents don't let them look at the sculpture of David.

We can't change that, so it's not a bad idea to work around it. Letting the builder select a category could be a good way around this - we could have mild nudity (like toplessness), extreme nudity, coarse language, and extreme violence/gore settings. Additionally, it would be nice if the builder could select if the title/thumbnail shows or not, since not all NSFW builds have a thumbnail that's inappropriate.

Then users could set in their profile what they're fine with viewing, or make exceptions by clicking a MOC and opting in. And if you agree to view a category, MOCs of that category show their thumbnail/title even if their hidden to everyone else. And if you clicked a MOC that you want to view despite your profile not being configured to view such MOCs, it'd tell you what genre the MOC is before you opt in (similar to how it is now, but with 4 variants for more specificity).
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| May 28, 2017, 8:14 pm
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist
Much as I agree that nudity shouldn't be an issue, I don't think we're ever going to change people by saying that.

The truth is, there are TFOLs (and YFOLs) who watch stuff like The Walking Dead, and yet their parents don't let them look at the sculpture of David.

We can't change that, so it's not a bad idea to work around it. Letting the builder select a category could be a good way around this - we could have mild nudity (like toplessness), extreme nudity, coarse language, and extreme violence/gore settings. Additionally, it would be nice if the builder could select if the title/thumbnail shows or not, since not all NSFW builds have a thumbnail that's inappropriate.

Then users could set in their profile what they're fine with viewing, or make exceptions by clicking a MOC and opting in. And if you agree to view a category, MOCs of that category show their thumbnail/title even if their hidden to everyone else. And if you clicked a MOC that you want to view despite your profile not being configured to view such MOCs, it'd tell you what genre the MOC is before you opt in (similar to how it is now, but with 4 variants for more specificity).

Different categories to choose from is excellent. We can choose already if it is a castle or space or train build, why not ADULT build? Add a filter that would apply a blacked out thumbnail and title. If there are age groups, have the post automatically go into the adult group and prevent anyone else in younger groups, unless the builder wishes, to view.
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| May 28, 2017, 8:32 pm
Quoting matt rowntRee
If there are age groups, have the post automatically go into the adult group and prevent anyone else in younger groups


Age groups, now that's interesting. I'm not sure about having to disclose our age and being limited in what we can see from that, but you got me thinking.

Age groups. Like groups, but with different moderation levels. We have MOCs that are PG-13, why not groups? Disable the automoderation in such groups, let people speak freely.

All the other groups could be as they are today, but having the option to create a group where people can say whatever they want could be pretty cool - just block it off from being viewed by people who have coarse language filtered out of the MOCs they can view.
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| May 28, 2017, 9:06 pm
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist

Age groups, now that's interesting. I'm not sure about having to disclose our age and being limited in what we can see from that, but you got me thinking.

Age groups. Like groups, but with different moderation levels. We have MOCs that are PG-13, why not groups? Disable the automoderation in such groups, let people speak freely.

All the other groups could be as they are today, but having the option to create a group where people can say whatever they want could be pretty cool - just block it off from being viewed by people who have coarse language filtered out of the MOCs they can view.

Yahtzee!

This idea sprung from a discussion between Green Footed Bear and I and it took me some time to fully grasp all the nuance of the notion (she is way brighter than I.) Now, to apply this on the broader scale of the pages with the mocs for the complete picture. As a builder that wants to post an adult build, or just to have it there and ready to have an adult discussion on it, fully disengaged from the auto moderation, the freedom of speech and expression is totally open. And it would be policed by the builder proactively rather than reacting to those that shouldn't be viewing it in the first place.
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| May 28, 2017, 10:52 pm
Meh. It'll blow over. The worst thing we can do is panic, panic, or try to insult the 'hacker'.
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| May 28, 2017, 10:58 pm
Quoting matt rowntRee
Different categories to choose from is excellent. We can choose already if it is a castle or space or train build, why not ADULT build? Add a filter that would apply a blacked out thumbnail and title. If there are age groups, have the post automatically go into the adult group and prevent anyone else in younger groups, unless the builder wishes, to view.

I think this is the best idea I've heard. MOCers have to choose a category for their creation anyway. I often feel like the categories aren't rigid enough, but if the site could be adjusted so viewers can see certain categories and hide others on an opt-in opt-out basis... That would solve a lot of problems. In fact, groups are required to register the same way too (I think?) so this feature could extend to them. Everyone can just check what they want to see and uncheck certain, distateful categories. (I don't feel like Castle today. *uncheck*.)

Unfortunately I know that would require a total website overhaul. It's a pity that the simplest solution for a user is necessarily the hardest solution for any potential code physician.

I've actually read everything in this thread, so I'm well aware of the current situation. I thought I'd speak up though. Also, I can vouch that I did NOT "leave" MOCpages due to a bad uploader. Or picture quality. I left the site because I didn't connect with many builders on the 'pages, and those phenomenal guys I met during DA2 disappeared into the cracks as soon as the cannon blasted its last dirge. And one of those cracks led to Flickr. I'm quite happy to resume my hobby there, even though I haven't found the same vitality in a community since.

I do wish it was easier to connect to other builders. We all know LoM ran well for years, but it was one of the few hubs of a certain genre. It would be interesting for MOCpages to take full advantage of its forum nature, even in its current state, and start some "official" groups for various themes. A little bit of staff or leader intervention might go a surprisingly long way to restoring conversation.

I won't affiliate myself with any group of builders, but I know that a well-regulated discussion forum, for sets, themes, MOCs, and everything else under the sun, would be an excellent new direction to take this website. Leave the customization and make-your-own-group freedom, but if there were ACTUAL congregation spots for SERIOUS FOLs, I can see the site holding a candle to everywhere else. I guarantee there are FOLs who enjoy the conversation (by which I do not mean one-day flame wars that can make a "mile-long" convo). We can all agree this site is better suited to conversation than any other Lego-friendly place on the internet since LUGNET. I wish we could actually utilize that.

Matt. I want to see "Nietzsche Contemplates Celestial Mechanics". Make the world a better place and build this, please. And bring on the subtle mature thematic visuals. Make us some "A"rt!
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| May 28, 2017, 11:04 pm
I want their input!

To Hacker, I extend a welcome seeing that you are capable of manipulating the site. I think we need ALL the possible input here as it needs some serious fixing. Are you willing to help?

matt
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| May 28, 2017, 11:07 pm
Quoting VAkkron ô
Matt. I want to see "Nietzsche Contemplates Celestial Mechanics". Make the world a better place and build this, please. And bring on the subtle mature thematic visuals. Make us some "A"rt!

Ha! Would it frighten you that I already made this artwork with that title in a screenprint? Seriously, the image was a green/yellow/red bleed through an image of a zipper opening with the words "Ahhh, Wisk."

I'm not right in the head. ;)
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| May 28, 2017, 11:18 pm
To Hacker, if you have any suggestions for here and feel that any repercussions would not be worth the harassment, feel free to Flickrmail me. I can relay any of your thoughts under complete anonymity. I can only give you my word on that, but it is all I have and the only thing I am proud of. I sincerely wish for your help as much as everyone else to help here.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/104851154@N02/

I know you have ideas, I want them on the table.

matt
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| May 29, 2017, 12:05 am
Quoting matt rowntRee
When a point is made repeatedly, it is called an agenda; and in this forum with the topics at hand, it needs to be stifled. I'm not here to debate, I'm here to fix this site; and you would know if "I just wanted to argue." I do not.

Now, if you and Daniel wish to add to the possible options for improving and fixing the problems here, I am more than open and know you guys are more than capable. As is Flex. However, if you are simply here to defend the indefensible and provide a "yeah" on an obtuse tangent, that is not constructive.


Look, I just felt that when you "lash out" at
Someone when you really have just misunderstood the meaning of their comment, they deserved to be defended.

Anyway- what is his somxalled agenda about? I have failed to see it?
?
If anyone is putting foreword an agenda it is you- he posts a comment about adding a new a system to mocpages, and he gets rebuked, and receives a counter argument about nudity, which he used as an example. His actual point was that different people find different things offensive,so the builder should show what type of maturity it is. Just read his comment again? It had everything to do with this topic.
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| May 29, 2017, 3:05 am
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist

Age groups, now that's interesting. I'm not sure about having to disclose our age and being limited in what we can see from that, but you got me thinking.

Age groups. Like groups, but with different moderation levels. We have MOCs that are PG-13, why not groups? Disable the automoderation in such groups, let people speak freely.

All the other groups could be as they are today, but having the option to create a group where people can say whatever they want could be pretty cool - just block it off from being viewed by people who have coarse language filtered out of the MOCs they can view.


But then AFOLS and the like will just loiter in those groups, And KFOLS in their groups, etc.

It will, I think, make the theee communities drift apart more,and that is not very helpful for the site.

As I said, I don't really want 3 different mocpages.
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| May 29, 2017, 3:29 am
Quoting matt rowntRee
Different categories to choose from is excellent. We can choose already if it is a castle or space or train build, why not ADULT build? Add a filter that would apply a blacked out thumbnail and title. If there are age groups, have the post automatically go into the adult group and prevent anyone else in younger groups, unless the builder wishes, to view.


I think a point mentioned earlier said that different people find different rhoda offensive- so the builder should put what is offensive on the build.

E.g.- someone may find violence, but not nudity offensive.


On on the build the builder selects the "violence" or "nudity" or "swearing" etc,etc?

A note that I didn't not comment up with this idea, that was sir flexalot, but o don't really think he had that much success in explaining his idea.
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| May 29, 2017, 3:34 am
 Group moderator 
Quoting Traykar the swift
Meh. It'll blow over. The worst thing we can do is panic, panic, or try to insult the 'hacker'.


Moved on from that issue. The discussion here is reviving, improving the site.


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| May 29, 2017, 8:24 am
 Group admin 
What apparently happened this weekend with these two other threads - and I say apparently because I hopped over there to find a barrage of dialog that I can't possibly take the time to look at - is a perfect example of one of the weaknesses of this site's current arrangements. I stepped away for a couple of days to come back this morning to what would be for me hours...HOURS!!!...of reading, interpretation, and deliberation on more MOCpages drama. So, I haven't even looked at it because I simply don't have the time, and probably won't have the time. Unfortunate, but life comes first. (I'm already over an hour behind in work now just trying to read through this thread and respond.)

That's obviously a big problem.

Some suggestions in this thread have addressed that. But, here's a "heads up." And this is complete conjecture, I admit...

It wouldn't surprise me, If I took this topic to Sean, to find his response would be eliminating groups altogether. Here's why I say that...

When MOCpages started, it had no groups. Sean added them later. Almost immediately after they appeared, the complaining, the arguing, and the avalanche of drama began...as did the mass exodus. In my opinion, that exodus resulted from a combo of frequent glitches and site shutdowns, and incessant bickering. It existed before the groups to some degree, but once the groups started, it was exacerbated immeasurably. When a parent is dealing with innumerable stresses, the last thing they want is the kids screaming and arguing. As Bill Cosby once put it, "It turns out parents aren't all that interested in justice, they just want quiet." Sean is the parent. We members are the kids. I'm going to venture out on a limb and say that I think Sean just wants quiet, and he's had it "up to here" with MOCpages.

Remember, the core of the site is the MOCs that we create. The groups are secondary and - again, just my conjecture - disposable.

Just be aware that this is something Sean might consider.

Ugggh...there's so much more I want to say, but I've GOT to get to work!!!


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| May 29, 2017, 9:07 am
Quoting andros tempest

Moved on from that issue. The discussion here is reviving, improving the site.


My bad. We had gotten hacked again last night.
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| May 29, 2017, 10:07 am
Quoting Mark Kelso
It wouldn't surprise me, If I took this topic to Sean, to find his response would be eliminating groups altogether. Here's why I say that...


Firstly, thanks again for taking the time to read all this, and thanks for sharing that info about groups. Hopefully some good can come of it.

Removing groups would be unfortunate. Based on Google Trends, MOCpages was most popular in July of 2009. And yet groups came into existence around January of 2009, so MOCpages continued to gain popularity after groups were introduced, until after the summer when traffic plummeted. Now, traffic always plummets after the summer, but not as much as it did in 2009.

Did groups have an influence in this? Probably. I'm willing to bet that the overall site redesign was a bigger factor though.

Don't get me wrong - the site looked absolutely terrible before, and it's infinitely better today. But people don't like change, and also that was back in 2009 when sites weren't so advanced yet. So some people probably left more because of the new-fangled site design than any real issue with groups. If you don't like groups, don't join them - very easy solution.

So in my opinion, groups have actually done a lot more good. They increase engagement - people come just to chat, and that means more pageviews (on lower bandwidth pages, so it's cheaper than people viewing MOCs), and thus more ad revenue for less expense. Plus they allow for contests, which are a huge driving force in new creations. There's a reason why the servers tend to crash during MocOlympics, MocAthalons, or Decisive Action - contests produce tons of activity and new MOCs.

Without groups, people don't stick around as much, and are less likely to check MOCpages more than once a day. I don't think we can really afford to lose more engagement at this point, and we 100% need some big contests to draw people back in once the uploader's improved so that people can see that MOCpages is a good place to post to. Gotta dangle a carrot for them first.

Additionally, the group hacking fix is incredibly simple. It's one of the smallest bugs on MOCpages, and resolving it would basically clear up 90% of the group-based drama around here. It would almost certainly be faster and easier to fix that than it would be to remove groups and redesign a new groupless layout.

MOCpages is good because of its users, nothing else. It's of course a decent platform for users, but we can make do with less or create a new site with similar functionality. But people like it here because of the existing users, existing time investment, and existing conversations. Cutting away parts of that severs people's ties to the site.

Regardless of whether Sean wants to sell the site, make money from the site's traffic, or just have it push traffic to his portfolio, he needs that strong user connection. The site's built on old tech and is inefficient - there's no reason acquirers would want it for the code, and no way it could make money or even not cost money without having plenty of traffic. But users provide both traffic and a reason for acquisitions - and groups keep traffic around.

What doesn't keep traffic and users is bugs, hard to use features like the uploader, and site crashes. If it wasn't for the crash in 2010, I think MOCpages would have fallen a lot less over the years.




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| May 29, 2017, 10:41 am
Quoting MCLegoboy !
Everyone is entitled to post their builds, no matter how serious. The problem we ran into with that one MOC that was posted here was Raptor Talon spamming the same comment over and over which also added likes with each comment. I can point you to a bunch of AFOL MOCs that are actually perfectly acceptable, but are very dirty in nature. The builds themselves are actually quite acceptable, but the titles are suggestive and the comments are full of everyone's dirty thoughts. PG filter was put in place of course, but the builds are just for a laugh. That's not really any different to what goes on in the circles you reference. There shouldn't be anything that does not comply with MOCpages rules, and so aside from the spamming of comments, the builds are legitimate, even when intentionally bad. So long as they do not actively seek to attack anyone specific or a group of people, so long as the MOC does not violate the rules of being too graphic in nature, and so long as the comments do not get spammed, the MOCs posted are allowed, no matter how objectively and subjectively unworthy they may be perceived.

That makes sense. Yeah, that comment (and the two topics from Friday/Saturday) were before my realization that it is acceptable. Now, I can have a laugh at most of those.
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| May 29, 2017, 10:50 am
I hope Sean will implement the ideas you send him Mr. Kelso. Or at least that he'll look at your message about it.
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| May 29, 2017, 10:52 am
Again, Luke has hit the nail on the head for me.

Groups help bring people together. Yes they also can cause issues, but if we had a better way of controlling groups, then it would be less of an issue. We could stop things before they got too out of control.

It would be incredibly unfortunate if Sean removed groups all together. I know that I for one wouldn't be here if it weren't for the groups. First I had the URS and for the past few years, The Insurgency, the latter of which has really helped to improve my writing, building, photography and all around moc-making. Without that group, I wouldn't still be on MOCpages. In fact, without the groups that have kept me here since the beginning, I likely wouldn't still be interested in Lego.

Obviously, I can only speak for myself for certain, but I'd be willing to bet that there are at least a fair few others out there in the same, or at least a similar situation, to myself.
--Blast--
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| May 29, 2017, 11:00 am
Quoting Mark Kelso

The groups seem like a vital part of Mocpages, especially with contests. I'm not sure I would like that as an option. However, it would stop a lot of the troop rallying and the little Lego lynch mobs that drift through policing "for the children". It would stop the drawn out bombast like the other two threads. I think for that reason alone the group elimination would be palatable.

If that happens, then there should definitely be more filtration added to the options given to the builder to post along with language moderation limitations. A "Ban all comments from this builder" should be a power for the builder in the comment section as well.

Conversation would be restricted to the moc giving the builder the power to moderate. This would conflict with the moderation protocols in place now, but with that tweaked it would give you moderators the time to actually take care of real issues. The minutia will be relegated to the builder on their moc. I think everyone would prefer that.

Come to think of it, getting rid of the groups altogether is a very sound option, and somewhat appealing.
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| May 29, 2017, 11:04 am
Irony-
Posting that groups are a bad idea in the MP help group. XD.

But in all seriousness, I disagree. I haven't heard any "For the children!" "Campaigners" actually say they dislike groups. I feel that's part of what gives mocpages such a strong bond, and I'd leave for flickor without it, (probably) as that's one of the great things I like about MP- the group system. It's really got everything else agaisnt it. And without the group system, the MP community would fracture- a lot.

And then RPGs like LOM or the Insurgency would all but die out, and where would we put all our technical issues? Without an MP help group?

And then it will also be a lot harder to find builders that you like-if I join a castle, group, then I can talk about castle techniques, and see other castle fans (for example.) but, without that, I would gave to use the "castle" sub-section on the explore page. But not everyone even adds a sub-section. And where would I learn my new techniques from?

And organising competitions? Wow. That'll be difficult?

I'm personally agaisnt it, but that's just me.
Permalink
| May 29, 2017, 11:13 am
Quoting James Douglas
Irony-
Posting that groups are a bad idea in the MP help group. XD.

But in all seriousness, I disagree. I haven't heard any "For the children!" "Campaigners" actually say they dislike groups. I feel that's part of what gives mocpages such a strong bond, and I'd leave for flickor without it, (probably) as that's one of the great things I like about MP- the group system. It's really got everything else agaisnt it. And without the group system, the MP community would fracture- a lot.

And then RPGs like LOM or the Insurgency would all but die out, and where would we put all our technical issues? Without an MP help group?

And then it will also be a lot harder to find builders that you like-if I join a castle, group, then I can talk about castle techniques, and see other castle fans (for example.) but, without that, I would gave to use the "castle" sub-section on the explore page. But not everyone even adds a sub-section. And where would I learn my new techniques from?

And organising competitions? Wow. That'll be difficult?

I'm personally agaisnt it, but that's just me.

another thing- if you don't post your builds and don't comment in groups, you'll not get half as popular as you would if you did- that's a true enough fact. So surely it will be even harder for new builders to get any attention at all?

Permalink
| May 29, 2017, 11:15 am
An to be honest, if you shut down the thousands (okay, perhaps more hundreds) of groups because of up to ten convo's in the help forum, I think you'd be cracking a walnut with a Death Star.
Permalink
| May 29, 2017, 11:20 am
I and probably the majority of other members would take the extremely flawed groups with their numerous problems over no groups at all.

I gotta agree that I probably would have also left if groups weren't there. I have been doing a big project for the past 2-3 years, so I haven't posted a single MOC in about 10 months. If there were no groups, I would be an utterly lost page-view. I would not be giving *anything* to MOCpages in 10 months. Like it or not, groups keep people around longer, which means more people see more ads, which means the bottom line is helped.

Killing off groups would be the single most foolish thing to do for this website in a long time. It would kill the site and over what? A few passing arguments that sort themselves out in a matter of hours?

(EDIT:) I also forgot to mention. Groups are pretty much the lifeblood of the site in my opinion. It keeps things colourful and personable. As much as the community may infuriate me at time, the community does help you feel more welcomed, and it's a nice feeling. On Flickr, you are lucky to even get a single comment on one of your photos, whereas on MOCpages, people always comment on your MOCs, and it feels much more like a gathering of different people than just a regular site.
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| May 29, 2017, 11:37 am
Blast and James, I have to disagree with you on the points of popularity and improving. I think the groups made it easier and faster, but I know that we all adapt to our environment. There were popular builders and those that improved their skills here before the groups existed. I got popular through engaging builders in constructive conversations on their builds long before I joined any groups. It was more direct and efficient than talking in the massive hall of a group; but, even in there, only a handful would really entertain the conversation. Look at the sizes of groups with regards to members, then count how many actually are involved.

Without groups, both of you would still have a following, would still engage, and would still learn and teach. It would be relegated to the moc, and it would afford a more organic and controlled flow.
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| May 29, 2017, 11:41 am
I too would be crushed to see the groups go. I met my first "fellow MOCpager" in one, and have gotten tons of inspiration and made lots of friends from the group experience. Going back a little bit, I think that having a council (as Matt suggested) would fix the immature groups problem; they could simply remove groups that break the site rules.
Permalink
| May 29, 2017, 11:41 am
Quoting Jonathan Demers
I too would be crushed to see the groups go. I met my first "fellow MOCpager" in one, and have gotten tons of inspiration and made lots of friends from the group experience. Going back a little bit, I think that having a council (as Matt suggested) would fix the immature groups problem; they could simply remove groups that break the site rules.

Perhaps a power to grant group formation be given to the counsel, or mods, to be applied for and voted on. This would make contests and RPGs viable.
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| May 29, 2017, 11:49 am
Quoting James Douglas
An to be honest, if you shut down the thousands (okay, perhaps more hundreds) of groups because of up to ten convo's in the help forum, I think you'd be cracking a walnut with a Death Star.

It IS thousands :-) Occasionally, when i just want to check up on this thread but not stay for long, i choose not to log in and just search for this group. searching the words "mocpages help" in the search window wields 1126 results! Granted, A LOT of them seem not to have even close to the words searched for in the title, but if that many turn up in a fairly limited search then there's bound to be lots more.

Anyway, the problem is not the "campaigners" alone, but rather the combined sum of all the arguments about topics large and small seen in many different groups.

I don't really know where i myself stand on eliminating groups. On the one hand, i only write in them from time to time and have for long periods of time not been writing in any of them at all. On the other hand, pretty much all my builds would not have gotten the comments and likes they have if i had not been able to post them in a plethora of groups.

Besides, some of the convos in the groups are more exciting "than melrose place", "king of queens" and "friends" combined, so where would i get my entertainment if they were gone! :-D
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| May 29, 2017, 11:50 am
Quoting matt rowntRee
Perhaps a power to grant group formation be given to the counsel, or mods, to be applied for and voted on. This would make contests and RPGs viable.


Right, so all groups would have to "approved" by the council, so to speak. That would work as long as the council is active.
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| May 29, 2017, 11:51 am
I am going to side with the "Keep the Groups" side. The groups here are keeping me far more active than I would otherwise be. My couple visits a year in 2015-2016, have turned into a daily thing with some of the groups I'm part of. It's giving me some focus right now and keeping me active in the community. Those groups go, it won't take long for me to get frustrated with no feedback and leave except for the occasional biannual posting.

I'll caveat all this with I think that the groups do need to be purged (inactive groups should be mothballed and/or removed), and I think if/when we get a new site moderation system up and running, they need the ability to shut down rogue groups.

If, as suggested, Sean just wants the drama to stop, ending groups would do that. But I think it would also strangle the site. If that is his reaction, tell him to slap a price tag on this site and sell it to someone who wants to put in the time and effort to make it what it can (and should) be. The suggestions put forth above by a lot of the members are mostly simple, effective, and will deal with the majority of the problems.
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| May 29, 2017, 11:55 am
Quoting James Douglas
Irony-
Posting that groups are a bad idea in the MP help group. XD.


Oh man, have I got a throw-back for you. Check out this comment from Sean Kenney in this group from back in September of 2009:

Quoting Sean Kenney
I find it ironic that people are using this group to say that groups are problematic. That simple concept should prove that it's not the group, but instead the people IN the group that are being rude, abusive, and evil. These are probably the same people that would act this way person. They probably try to steal your lunch money.


(From http://www.moc-pages.com/group_conversation.php?id=2600&topicid=30374)

Stumbled on that when looking into the initial creation of groups, good times.

Anyways, I'm not sure we're making a lot of progress here. We put out a ton of suggestions, and at this point we may be writing faster than Mark can keep up with (let alone Sean). I mean, they're great suggestions and it's a great discussion. But some of these suggestions might be better suited to the MOCpages council that Matt proposed - don't want to overload Sean (or Mark). We have the main issues narrowed down, as well as the most actionable ones, and it might be prudent to just push hard for those quick fixes now and worry about more elaborate stuff later.

And yes, I'm 100% guilty of this, with long comments on server infrastructure and such. Much as I'd love for us to make important changes, if Sean saw all the suggestions right now he'd have a heart attack. First things first - and that's probably the minor glitches. Easy, straightforward, and tangible benefits. We can handle the community without Sean doing anything, at least for now (later on we may want to implement more suggestions, but perhaps clarifying our ideas might be better done in a different group at this point, and only brought back here when it can be laid out perfectly).
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| May 29, 2017, 11:56 am
Quoting matt rowntRee
Perhaps a power to grant group formation be given to the counsel, or mods, to be applied for and voted on. This would make contests and RPGs viable.


I was thinking something of the same thing. Perhaps a default set of permanent groups dedicated to each theme/sub-theme, moderated by members of the counsel, with selected individual groups which could be added by approval with singular admin rights for each. (Part of the problem with groups comes with multiple admins going to war with each other over the direction of the group.)
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| May 29, 2017, 11:58 am
Quoting matt rowntRee
Blast and James, I have to disagree with you on the points of popularity and improving. I think the groups made it easier and faster, but I know that we all adapt to our environment. There were popular builders and those that improved their skills here before the groups existed. I got popular through engaging builders in constructive conversations on their builds long before I joined any groups. It was more direct and efficient than talking in the massive hall of a group; but, even in there, only a handful would really entertain the conversation. Look at the sizes of groups with regards to members, then count how many actually are involved.

Without groups, both of you would still have a following, would still engage, and would still learn and teach. It would be relegated to the moc, and it would afford a more organic and controlled flow.


Less then you would think. I had left MP at one stage last year, and only really stayed active through LOM.

In the past few months more or less all of my creations have been RPG, or fig brawl/competition. You want to try organise a fig brawl without a group? Good luck.

I post a MOC every other month or so, but I am one of the Pages most active users-through groups.

Without groups, Mocoages becomes the Lego gallery. With one or two slight difference.

And that's not appealing to me at all.

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| May 29, 2017, 12:03 pm
Comment incoming - just posting this so the comment isn't totally lost, so check back in this space (or several comments up) over the next few hours to see if it shows up. I'll post the gist of it though:

We're covering lots of good ground here, but at this point there's no way Sean can do everything we're talking about. Eventually perhaps, but not right now. If he read every suggestion here he'd be overwhelmed and just do nothing.

I think a lot of this discussion might be better off done in a group like the council that Matt suggested, with the points agreed upon, condensed, and presented once ready.

Right now, there are some easy things to focus on like fixing the group hacking - very simple, straightforward, and obvious benefits to that. If we tell Sean that that needs to be done, he'd be able to do it. And then we can move on to the next suggestion, and keep doing that one at a time in a palatable manner, covering easy and important things first, and then moving on to the less necessary or more difficult aspects later on.

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| May 29, 2017, 12:03 pm
If groups got removed, I would almost definitely go to Flickr. Personally I don't like the idea of groups needing to be approved though.
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| May 29, 2017, 12:04 pm
Quoting matt rowntRee
Perhaps a power to grant group formation be given to the counsel, or mods, to be applied for and voted on. This would make contests and RPGs viable.


What? They would be hundreds of requests- for group crossovers, chat groups, staff groups, on the mocathalon about 20 groups perhaps within a day' (for the teams).
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| May 29, 2017, 12:05 pm
Quoting James Y.

I was thinking something of the same thing. Perhaps a default set of permanent groups dedicated to each theme/sub-theme, moderated by members of the counsel, with selected individual groups which could be added by approval with singular admin rights for each. (Part of the problem with groups comes with multiple admins going to war with each other over the direction of the group.)


About that last comment... That dosent really happen much. Apart from OS. It kinda happenend. From a certain point of view.
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| May 29, 2017, 12:07 pm
Quoting Builder Allan
It IS thousands :-) Occasionally, when i just want to check up on this thread but not stay for long, i choose not to log in and just search for this group. searching the words "mocpages help" in the search window wields 1126 results! Granted, A LOT of them seem not to have even close to the words searched for in the title, but if that many turn up in a fairly limited search then there's bound to be lots more.

Anyway, the problem is not the "campaigners" alone, but rather the combined sum of all the arguments about topics large and small seen in many different groups.

I don't really know where i myself stand on eliminating groups. On the one hand, i only write in them from time to time and have for long periods of time not been writing in any of them at all. On the other hand, pretty much all my builds would not have gotten the comments and likes they have if i had not been able to post them in a plethora of groups.

Besides, some of the convos in the groups are more exciting "than melrose place", "king of queens" and "friends" combined, so where would i get my entertainment if they were gone! :-D


But how does arguments in groups annoy Sean? He dosent have every single group in his activity feed, and so it's only 1 in 100 arguments are reported here. It's this group that the majority of arguments take place in.

OH! The irony!
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| May 29, 2017, 12:09 pm
A other things- group threads can be hundreds of comment long, so new threads are made, etc. But in A creation, you can't make new threads, so your creation could be hundreds or even thousands of comments long, if your not careful.

Anyway, some people may like every comment they post- we already saw what controversy that did when someone did it 5 times- so what if someone did it thirty?

And then, the creations would be all muddled up- a creation may get "top place" in that week because there was a long conversation in it...
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| May 29, 2017, 12:13 pm
Quoting James Douglas

But how does arguments in groups annoy Sean? He dosent have every single group in his activity feed, and so it's only 1 in 100 arguments are reported here. It's this group that the majority of arguments take place in.

OH! The irony!

I think they mostly do because they breed animosity between members, making some members leave and making others take their arguments outside the groups. Even on to MOC comments occasionally. And when other site members, group members or potential new members see those arguments it leaves a bad impression on them.

Also, the arguments that end up here takes up time from the site-admins, which could have been spent better trying to help people with other problems :-)
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| May 29, 2017, 12:30 pm
Quoting James Douglas

About that last comment... That doesn't really happen much. Apart from OS. It kinda happened. From a certain point of view.


I did not say it happened often, just that is is one of the things that does happen and as such causes more grief than not when it does. I've moderated far larger sites than this one, and time and time again I've had to wade into groups and break up a group admin fight. The effect of internal large group admin fights is often disproportional to the importance of the group. See how much drama OS caused. It doesn't need to happen often for it a pain in the rear end. It is something that can be relatively easily avoided.
Permalink
| May 29, 2017, 12:47 pm
Quoting James Douglas

What? They would be hundreds of requests- for group crossovers, chat groups, staff groups, on the mocathalon about 20 groups perhaps within a day' (for the teams).


Farther down the line, certainly not now, it may be worth having a longer more drawn out conversation regarding this idea. To start with, I would significantly redesign the groups to give an internal level structure which would include admin only, moderator and admin, and team threads which would eliminate the need for secondary and tertiary groups to even exist in the first place. One of the problems with groups is that finding groups is now very hard with thousands of these micro groups out there clogging up the search function. But as I said, lets trim this conversation back to fixing the needed items, and limiting our wish list until we can get MOCPages on a stable enough footing. For the time being, I am going to throw what little support I have behind LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist, and be done with it. I think Luke's got the clearest vision for a direct fix, and while other users have very valid points and long term ideas (notably Matt), I think the short term is the key now.
Permalink
| May 29, 2017, 12:52 pm
Quoting James Douglas
Irony-
Posting that groups are a bad idea in the MP help group. XD.

But in all seriousness, I disagree. I haven't heard any "For the children!" "Campaigners" actually say they dislike groups. I feel that's part of what gives mocpages such a strong bond, and I'd leave for flickor without it, (probably) as that's one of the great things I like about MP- the group system. It's really got everything else agaisnt it. And without the group system, the MP community would fracture- a lot.

And then RPGs like LOM or the Insurgency would all but die out, and where would we put all our technical issues? Without an MP help group?

And then it will also be a lot harder to find builders that you like-if I join a castle, group, then I can talk about castle techniques, and see other castle fans (for example.) but, without that, I would gave to use the "castle" sub-section on the explore page. But not everyone even adds a sub-section. And where would I learn my new techniques from?

And organising competitions? Wow. That'll be difficult?

I'm personally agaisnt it, but that's just me.

Yes, I agree totally. I think removing groups would be a very bad move. I personally might leave if that happened. I love the community here.

Also, to go along with your examples of what would happen if groups were removed, what about MOCpages News? We'd never get an issue out, we wouldn't have any where to construct it. Unless of course, we used some other website. But, not all of our writers may have access to another external website.
Permalink
| May 29, 2017, 12:56 pm
I agree, removing groups would weaken the community here and more people would leave. One of the main reasons why I am still here is because of this great group system. Without it, I would almost certainly migrate to Flickr.
Permalink
| May 29, 2017, 12:58 pm
Quoting Classical Bricks
I agree, removing groups would weaken the community here and more people would leave. One of the main reasons why I am still here is because of this great group system. Without it, I would almost certainly migrate to Flickr.

Yep. Also, I don't think changing the system is the way to go either. Groups are great the way they are. (Besides the exploits of course)
Permalink
| May 29, 2017, 1:02 pm
Many of the arguments for keeping the groups are hinging on the threat of moving to Flickr without taking into consideration all the people that have already migrated over there. If the groups are such a unique and fantastic feature of Mocpages, then why aren't those people returning in droves? There are groups on Flickr that have an equal amount of, if not more, drama. So why aren't they flocking back here? Definitely the technical issues are a leading cause; however, are the technical wonders that elevate Flickr above Mocpages THAT appealing? Higher resolution, zoom, notes, reliable uploading (okay, maybe that), are these things that will make them rush on back here? When Flickr stopped notes a year or two back, was there any sort of land rush for space on Mocpages? I guarantee that there won't be a single person that is not hesitant to do so. They will not dive in with both feet without testing the waters that have burned them in the past.

This needs to be that Lego gallery, not a collection of chat rooms that bicker and whine. This needs to be a site dedicated to "a"rt and "A"rt that encourages the conversation, not feed the vitriol. This needs to be a welcoming community that wants to expand and express, not a group of witch hunters sharpening their pitchforks and lighting torches. This needs to be a flawed environment, not a paradise.

The eradication of groups is extreme; however, if there were a means to regulate the formation of so many, eliminate the unused, and police on a local level, I'm all for it. But as Luke said, there are elements that need fixing first before the other details can be hammered out.

The first of which is the confirmation that Sean is even going to bother. I'm patient, I'll await Mark's word. After he gets back to work. slacker.
Permalink
| May 29, 2017, 1:30 pm
Quoting matt rowntRee
Many of the arguments for keeping the groups are hinging on the threat of moving to Flickr without taking into consideration all the people that have already migrated over there. If the groups are such a unique and fantastic feature of Mocpages, then why aren't those people returning in droves? There are groups on Flickr that have an equal amount of, if not more, drama. So why aren't they flocking back here? Definitely the technical issues are a leading cause; however, are the technical wonders that elevate Flickr above Mocpages THAT appealing? Higher resolution, zoom, notes, reliable uploading (okay, maybe that), are these things that will make them rush on back here? When Flickr stopped notes a year or two back, was there any sort of land rush for space on Mocpages? I guarantee that there won't be a single person that is not hesitant to do so. They will not dive in with both feet without testing the waters that have burned them in the past.

This needs to be that Lego gallery, not a collection of chat rooms that bicker and whine. This needs to be a site dedicated to "a"rt and "A"rt that encourages the conversation, not feed the vitriol. This needs to be a welcoming community that wants to expand and express, not a group of witch hunters sharpening their pitchforks and lighting torches. This needs to be a flawed environment, not a paradise.

The eradication of groups is extreme; however, if there were a means to regulate the formation of so many, eliminate the unused, and police on a local level, I'm all for it. But as Luke said, there are elements that need fixing first before the other details can be hammered out.

The first of which is the confirmation that Sean is even going to bother. I'm patient, I'll await Mark's word. After he gets back to work. slacker.


You missed my point, I'm afraid, Matt.

This will be exactly like THE Lego gallery. As in that one which most people abandoned, and barley has any AFOLs?

I'm not saying the group system is so undoubtably amazing that everyone is coming rushing.

But it is certainly more af an attracter then a de-attracter. (Those are real words. Because I say they are. Everyone happy? Great.)
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| May 29, 2017, 1:38 pm
but, group mods can, and ussualy do delete argument ice and rŁdŽ comments... Unless they want to argue.

And if your a mocer, and someone posts certain things on your moc, and you get into an argument, it's really the same situation.

I still don't get how the bickering in a TFoL or KFOL group annoys you. 1 in 100 arguments are brought here, but apart from that, it stays in their respective group.

If some of the people in that group don't like it, they leave the group.

Delete the groups if you want. But I doubt anyone on flickor will shout "hey! Mocpages has no groups! YES! I'm going back!" More likely it's people on Mocoages "what? No groups? Well, flickor looks very tasty, dosent it...."

And the council group system? Yeah, I guess deleting inappropriate groups with a council is a GREAT idea. But moderating groups to be made? What does that achieve? Okay, maybe 1 in a 1000 groups are made by a spam account, or are HštŽfŁ| in nature, but I don't really see many other advantages of that system... At all.

And this group stuff needs to be put back on the "wish list" rather then the "need list". The uploader and security issues? VERY Imporatnt! The odd groups bickering constantly? Less so.
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| May 29, 2017, 1:46 pm
If anyone wants to discuss specific things in more depth, come over to the MOCpages Suggestions Group here: http://www.moc-pages.com/group.php/26114

We have topics for most of the major suggestion categories where you can voice your opinions, and that way we can have a more concise and manageable discussion that's focused on specific issues.

Then when consensus is reached, or we think of something new and potentially worthwhile for Sean to know about, we can post it in this thread, after having already done all the arguing over there. ;)
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| May 29, 2017, 4:12 pm
@Mark Kelso

Before you present your ideas to Sean, could you make another topic to confirm with everyone what you're putting forward?
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| May 29, 2017, 4:19 pm
 Group moderator 
Can we not "debate" the group issue, please. It was suggested the problems we now face would be resolved if there were no groups. Some of you disagree.

Got it.

How does trying to convince OTHER MEMBERS that they are wrong, respect their opinion? Or add any weight to the proposal for or against? The fact this discussion is mired AGAIN in an endless debate where no one can win is convincing me the group system is flawed.


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| May 29, 2017, 4:29 pm
Quoting andros tempest
Can we not "debate" the group issue, please. It was suggested the problems we now face would be resolved if there were no groups. Some of you disagree.

Got it.

How does trying to convince OTHER MEMBERS that they are wrong, respect their opinion? Or add any weight to the proposal for or against? The fact this discussion is mired AGAIN in an endless debate where no one can win is convincing me the group system is flawed.



Sorry.

But I think we wanted to make sure we sent a list everyone liked to Sean.

This was not really a silly debate filled with insults and childish behaviour.

But we'll stop, I'm sure.


Permalink
| May 29, 2017, 4:50 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Callum ~
@Mark Kelso

Before you present your ideas to Sean, could you make another topic to confirm with everyone what you're putting forward?


I will, indeed. And by the way, last I saw, Sean was in Germany. I've no idea how long he'll be travelling, but I'm going to wait until I know he's home before sending any communications. Meanwhile, we can continue to organize our thoughts.
Permalink
| May 29, 2017, 5:26 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist
If anyone wants to discuss specific things in more depth, come over to the MOCpages Suggestions Group here: http://www.moc-pages.com/group.php/26114

We have topics for most of the major suggestion categories where you can voice your opinions, and that way we can have a more concise and manageable discussion that's focused on specific issues.

Then when consensus is reached, or we think of something new and potentially worthwhile for Sean to know about, we can post it in this thread, after having already done all the arguing over there. ;)


Thanks, that should be helpful.
Permalink
| May 29, 2017, 5:28 pm
 Group moderator 
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist
If anyone wants to discuss specific things in more depth, come over to the MOCpages Suggestions Group here: http://www.moc-pages.com/group.php/26114

We have topics for most of the major suggestion categories where you can voice your opinions, and that way we can have a more concise and manageable discussion that's focused on specific issues.

Then when consensus is reached, or we think of something new and potentially worthwhile for Sean to know about, we can post it in this thread, after having already done all the arguing over there. ;)


Thanks luke, getting only a summary posted in this discussion should make it easier to follow. Just be prepared for off topic waffle.

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| May 30, 2017, 8:16 am
Oh, just noticed sone glitches. Can't remember if I mentioned this one but there's an issue with my "new from your favorite builders", and sometimes it'll notify me of the same comment twice.
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| May 30, 2017, 5:50 pm
Quoting Sir Flexalot
Oh, just noticed sone glitches. Can't remember if I mentioned this one but there's an issue with my "new from your favorite builders", and sometimes it'll notify me of the same comment twice.


The comment one is ussualy because someone has edited it, and if it was a comment that had to go through moderation, it will appear again. Or if it's on a creation.

And Can you be more specific? What is this issue? Where are you being notified? There's 2 or 3 different places it could be.


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| May 30, 2017, 6:00 pm
Quoting James Douglas

The ladybug one is ussualy because someone has edited it, and if it was a comment that had to go through moderation, it will appear again.


Can you be more specific? What is this issue? Where are you being notified? There's 2 or 3 different places it could be.


The part of the homepage. And, it seems that it removes favorite builders' creations from the section when I add a new favorite or something.
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| May 30, 2017, 6:02 pm
Quoting Sir Flexalot
The part of the homepage. And, it seems that it removes favorite builders' creations from the section when I add a new favorite or something.


1. You mean the bit in the bottom right?

2. Stil dosen't mean anything to me. I don't really understand you.

I'll go check that last one out.
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| May 30, 2017, 6:04 pm
Quoting James Douglas

The comment one is ussualy because someone has edited it, and if it was a comment that had to go through moderation, it will appear again. Or if it's on a creation.

And Can you be more specific? What is this issue? Where are you being notified? There's 2 or 3 different places it could be.


Yeah, whenever I add a new favorite, it moves some of my favorites' newer creations to make room for my new favorite (especially noticeable when you look at old creations and favorite their makers a lot)

Permalink
| May 30, 2017, 6:05 pm
Quoting Sir Flexalot
Yeah, whenever I add a new favorite, it moves some of my favorites' newer creations to make room for my new favorite (especially noticeable when you look at old creations and favorite their makers a lot)


Ok. I don't really see the problem though? Is it not meant to do that?
Permalink
| May 30, 2017, 6:07 pm
Quoting James Douglas

1. You mean the bit in the bottom right?

2. Stil dosen't mean anything to me. I don't really understand you.

I'll go check that last one out.

Are you talking about the favorite builder issue or the comment issue?
Permalink
| May 30, 2017, 6:07 pm
Quoting James Douglas

Ok. I don't really see the problem though? Is it not meant to do that?

It's meant to show your favorites' latest builds, but it shows my most recently added favorite's builds in place of some of the latest.
Permalink
| May 30, 2017, 6:09 pm
I've moved away from MOCpages because I tried suggesting changes but there was nobody to hear. It's great to see this thread and the practical ideas for relatively straight forward changes that could make a big difference that people have made, Luke especially.

One thing that I haven't seen mentioned is that Flickr's commenting system is better because it allows people (not just the creator) to have a proper conversation about the MOC. Could the commenting system be tweaked to allow this? Could we be allowed to include HTML in the comments too?

I'm not sure where the auto-delete debate got to but I really enjoy the archives and it would be a shame to see them go.

In terms of practical help, I'm very willing to join in the moderation effort for a revamped site, if that would help. The more people, in more time zones that are involved, the more reactive the moderation can potentially be.
Permalink
| May 31, 2017, 5:39 pm
 Group admin 
Just to give everyone an update here...

Sean still appears to be in Europe. In case anyone missed it, I won't try touching base with him until he's back in the states and can focus on a conversation regarding MOCpages.

A mountain of suggestions has come down the pike, and while many of them are excellent, I've decided I won't be hitting Sean up with most of them, at least immediately. The more pressing concerns are the hacks and glitches, followed by personnel to moderate.

If he's up for that, we can then discuss potential improvements, but I want to start with the most critical items and not overwhelm the guy at the onset.

I'll also be out of town with work until next Tuesday, so this will be the last time I check in for a few days.

Over and out.
Permalink
| June 5, 2017, 9:45 pm
 Group admin 
Alright, I'm back in the saddle here. I'm going to take a couple of days to go over the mountain of comments and suggestions regarding the site, and then see if I can get in touch with Sean. I'm not certain that he's back in the states, but I've not seen any FB posts over the last few days of his exploits in Europe. So I'm going to go ahead and start the communication process with him.

I'll continue to keep you guys posted, but for now I'm going to lock this thread to avoid any more chatter. Hopefully by this point, anyone interested in chiming in on the topic has taken a moment to do so.

I'll touch base again when (...I say "when" instead of "if" - power of positive thinking, right?...) I get a response from Sean.


Permalink
| June 13, 2017, 7:48 am
Quoting Mark Kelso
Alright, I'm back in the saddle here. I'm going to take a couple of days to go over the mountain of comments and suggestions regarding the site, and then see if I can get in touch with Sean. I'm not certain that he's back in the states, but I've not seen any FB posts over the last few days of his exploits in Europe. So I'm going to go ahead and start the communication process with him.

I'll continue to keep you guys posted, but for now I'm going to lock this thread to avoid any more chatter. Hopefully by this point, anyone interested in chiming in on the topic has taken a moment to do so.

I'll touch base again when (...I say "when" instead of "if" - power of positive thinking, right?...) I get a response from Sean.


Cool! Quick, unrelated question: are you, Chris Phipson, and Sean still building Lego?
Permalink
| June 13, 2017, 7:52 am
 Group admin 
Quoting Sir Flexalot
Cool! Quick, unrelated question: are you, Chris Phipson, and Sean still building Lego?


Yep, all building. Sean's doing it professionally and that's the very reason he's been so distant here on the pages (extremely busy with it). Chris and I still build, too. In fact we're both participating in a very large collaboration this week at Brickworld in Chicago. We've been building for it all year. I won't be at BW personally, but if anyone in our group gets shots of the collab to me after the event, I'll post some pics.

Ha...so much for no more chatter.
Permalink
| June 13, 2017, 10:44 am
 Group admin 
Update here...

It took me a while to get around to emailing Sean. (I had a family vacation, and then nearly five days of catch up once I was home before being able to come back here to MOCpages.)

Nevertheless, I sent an email to Sean pleading for the basics - glitch repairs and some help with moderation. So far, I've not heard back from him. But, it's only been a few days. I'll update again at the end of this week and let you know if I've heard back from him.
Permalink
| July 5, 2017, 6:47 am
 Group admin 
Okay, it's been over a week now, and no response from Sean.

I'll try once more - a follow up here tomorrow after I'm back in town (more travelling today). If nothing comes of that, then I hate to say it, but I'm throwing in the towel.
Permalink
| July 10, 2017, 7:24 am
Quoting Mark Kelso
Okay, it's been over a week now, and no response from Sean.

I'll try once more - a follow up here tomorrow after I'm back in town (more travelling today). If nothing comes of that, then I hate to say it, but I'm throwing in the towel.

Thank you for the update, Mark. We all await with baited breath.
--Blast--
Permalink
| July 10, 2017, 7:43 am
Quoting Mark Kelso
Okay, it's been over a week now, and no response from Sean.

I'll try once more - a follow up here tomorrow after I'm back in town (more travelling today). If nothing comes of that, then I hate to say it, but I'm throwing in the towel.

Thanks for giving this a shot!
Permalink
| July 12, 2017, 12:04 pm
Quoting Mark Kelso
Okay, it's been over a week now, and no response from Sean.

I'll try once more - a follow up here tomorrow after I'm back in town (more travelling today). If nothing comes of that, then I hate to say it, but I'm throwing in the towel.

You and Chris have the patience of saints. Sean does not deserve you.
Permalink
| July 12, 2017, 2:18 pm
Quoting Mark Kelso
Okay, it's been over a week now, and no response from Sean.

I'll try once more - a follow up here tomorrow after I'm back in town (more travelling today). If nothing comes of that, then I hate to say it, but I'm throwing in the towel.

Thank you so much, mr. Kelso.
Permalink
| July 12, 2017, 2:53 pm
Quoting Mark Kelso
Okay, it's been over a week now, and no response from Sean.

I'll try once more - a follow up here tomorrow after I'm back in town (more travelling today). If nothing comes of that, then I hate to say it, but I'm throwing in the towel.
Much appreciated mate, thank you.

Permalink
| July 13, 2017, 5:44 pm
Quoting Mark Kelso
Okay, it's been over a week now, and no response from Sean.

I'll try once more - a follow up here tomorrow after I'm back in town (more travelling today). If nothing comes of that, then I hate to say it, but I'm throwing in the towel.


Day three, not looking good. Regardless of the outcome, thanks for keeping us in the loop Mark, and hope travel's going well.
Permalink
| July 13, 2017, 6:03 pm
 Group admin 
I'll give it some more time, although yeah...it's not looking good. But then again, sometimes it takes me two weeks before being able to return an email that's not what I'd call "urgent." Could be the same for Sean. The towel's firmly in hand and the arm's back...but I'll wait a few more days before chuckin' it into the ring.
Permalink
| July 14, 2017, 6:28 am
Quoting Mark Kelso
I'll give it some more time, although yeah...it's not looking good. But then again, sometimes it takes me two weeks before being able to return an email that's not what I'd call "urgent." Could be the same for Sean. The towel's firmly in hand and the arm's back...but I'll wait a few more days before chuckin' it into the ring.

Thank you for all of your time & effort in running the Pages and especially in starting this thread and collating all of the ideas here. I hope that you do get a response; a positive response from Sean.
Permalink
| July 14, 2017, 7:26 am
Quoting Mark Kelso
I'll give it some more time, although yeah...it's not looking good. But then again, sometimes it takes me two weeks before being able to return an email that's not what I'd call "urgent." Could be the same for Sean. The towel's firmly in hand and the arm's back...but I'll wait a few more days before chuckin' it into the ring.

I knew I should have mentioned something on some of his YouTube videos fro LEGO Batman or that Japanese Documentary, but that also didn't feel like it would be appropriate. "Yo, MOCpages is on fire, help us out! Oh yeah, and nice video, but seriously, help us."
Permalink
| July 14, 2017, 10:27 am
 Group admin 
Well, I'm making an official call here...

We're on our own.

Sean hasn't returned my emails. Unless something's wonky and he's just not getting them - highly unlikely - he's choosing not to respond.

At this point, we'll simply have to do the best we can with what we've got...or of course move on to other sites that host Lego content (like so many builders have already done).

Bottom line, though; no fixes, no improvements, and no additional help with moderation of the site - at least for the time being.

Permalink
| July 21, 2017, 7:35 am
 Group admin 
Okay...

Looks like I wrote things off too soon. Sean DID just get back with me, and was enthusiastic about a couple of changes:

I'll need to talk to some people individually, but we're looking essentially at the option to add an additional site-wide moderator or two. I'll also be talking to a couple of people about getting into the site for some glitch clean-up, and perhaps more.

It will take a few days to follow up on this, but I'll continue to post updates as they come down the pike.

Keep in mind we're not talking about major overhauls to the site, but hopefully the final outcome here will be quicker response time for all moderated content, and a glitch-free site...which, I'm sure would be a relief to many of us.

Stay tuned.

Permalink
| July 29, 2017, 7:09 am
Quoting Mark Kelso
Okay...

Looks like I wrote things off too soon. Sean DID just get back with me, and was enthusiastic about a couple of changes:

I'll need to talk to some people individually, but we're looking essentially at the option to add an additional site-wide moderator or two. I'll also be talking to a couple of people about getting into the site for some glitch clean-up, and perhaps more.

It will take a few days to follow up on this, but I'll continue to post updates as they come down the pike.

Keep in mind we're not talking about major overhauls to the site, but hopefully the final outcome here will be quicker response time for all moderated content, and a glitch-free site...which, I'm sure would be a relief to many of us.

Stay tuned.

:D thank you for all the effort and time you've put into this site!!
Permalink
| July 29, 2017, 7:16 am
Quoting Mark Kelso
Okay...

Looks like I wrote things off too soon. Sean DID just get back with me, and was enthusiastic about a couple of changes:

I'll need to talk to some people individually, but we're looking essentially at the option to add an additional site-wide moderator or two. I'll also be talking to a couple of people about getting into the site for some glitch clean-up, and perhaps more.

It will take a few days to follow up on this, but I'll continue to post updates as they come down the pike.

Keep in mind we're not talking about major overhauls to the site, but hopefully the final outcome here will be quicker response time for all moderated content, and a glitch-free site...which, I'm sure would be a relief to many of us.

Stay tuned.

Thank you so much, Mr. Kelso!
Permalink
| July 29, 2017, 7:20 am
Thanks a lot Mark, great to see that Sean's finally responded. [IAD]
Permalink
| July 29, 2017, 8:43 am
Quoting Mark Kelso
Okay...

Looks like I wrote things off too soon. Sean DID just get back with me, and was enthusiastic about a couple of changes:

I'll need to talk to some people individually, but we're looking essentially at the option to add an additional site-wide moderator or two. I'll also be talking to a couple of people about getting into the site for some glitch clean-up, and perhaps more.

It will take a few days to follow up on this, but I'll continue to post updates as they come down the pike.

Keep in mind we're not talking about major overhauls to the site, but hopefully the final outcome here will be quicker response time for all moderated content, and a glitch-free site...which, I'm sure would be a relief to many of us.

Stay tuned.

Woohoo!
:D
Permalink
| July 29, 2017, 9:02 am
Quoting Mark Kelso
Okay...

Looks like I wrote things off too soon. Sean DID just get back with me, and was enthusiastic about a couple of changes:

I'll need to talk to some people individually, but we're looking essentially at the option to add an additional site-wide moderator or two. I'll also be talking to a couple of people about getting into the site for some glitch clean-up, and perhaps more.

It will take a few days to follow up on this, but I'll continue to post updates as they come down the pike.

Keep in mind we're not talking about major overhauls to the site, but hopefully the final outcome here will be quicker response time for all moderated content, and a glitch-free site...which, I'm sure would be a relief to many of us.

Stay tuned.

Woot woot! Thanks for everything you've done! :)
Permalink
| July 29, 2017, 9:03 am
The deuce you say?! Well that's a welcome kick to the daddy bags, can't wait to actually hear what Sean intends to do.

Thanks Mark!
Permalink
| July 29, 2017, 11:01 am
Quoting Mark Kelso

Hallelujah!!! Well, this is a most welcome surprise! Thank you for your hard work on our behalf, Mark! It's paying off! We all look forward to what comes next!
--Blast--
Permalink
| July 29, 2017, 2:45 pm
Great news! A MOCpages brought up to date would be wonderful. Please do let the wider membership know how we might help.
Permalink
| July 29, 2017, 5:13 pm
Awesome news! Thanks for the update, Mark!
-LB Senior
Permalink
| July 29, 2017, 7:01 pm
Quoting Mark Kelso
Okay...

I was beginning to think the red phone was broken. Glad to see he's responded. We may never know who he is under that mask of his... okay we DO know who he is, but we also know when we need him, and we need him now more than ever.
Permalink
| July 29, 2017, 8:40 pm
Quoting Mark Kelso


Awesome!! :D
Permalink
| July 29, 2017, 10:27 pm
Quoting Mark Kelso
That must be the best news i've heard in a while!

Thank you very much Mark for handling all of this and thank you to Sean for hearing our plea :-)

Permalink
| July 30, 2017, 3:31 am
Quoting Mark Kelso

YES. :D
Permalink
| July 30, 2017, 12:07 pm
A huge thanks to you and Sean, Mark! I know fitting this into your schedule must have been difficult, but we very much appreciate it!
Permalink
| July 30, 2017, 6:07 pm
Quoting Mark Kelso
Okay...

Looks like I wrote things off too soon. Sean DID just get back with me, and was enthusiastic about a couple of changes:

I'll need to talk to some people individually, but we're looking essentially at the option to add an additional site-wide moderator or two. I'll also be talking to a couple of people about getting into the site for some glitch clean-up, and perhaps more.

It will take a few days to follow up on this, but I'll continue to post updates as they come down the pike.

Keep in mind we're not talking about major overhauls to the site, but hopefully the final outcome here will be quicker response time for all moderated content, and a glitch-free site...which, I'm sure would be a relief to many of us.

Stay tuned.


Best news I've ever heard about the site so far! :D
Permalink
| August 2, 2017, 9:07 am
Hi to everyone, I am Italian, and I am relatively new to this site, I am an active builder also.
I understood much of the problem of a free site like this one, but looking around in the world at the moment the best one to show the mocs with at least a good order and organization of the different types of style.
But recently I found almost impossible to publish photos, neither the uploaded works, not jpeg GIF npeg or any other works.
I am 45 years old, not for sure a genius of computer, in fact barely a user, but believe me, I got crazy with this.
I have published 5 castles already, but my Las cathedral is invisible today &#128522;.
I am not a technological expert but if I can be helpful as moderator I can try to help you this way.
I thanks the people who had started this site because I really love it, I hope that these Las problems can be solved. Regards to every body.
Antonio Mortola
Permalink
| August 6, 2017, 12:42 pm
Quoting Mark Kelso
Okay...

Looks like I wrote things off too soon. Sean DID just get back with me, and was enthusiastic about a couple of changes:

I'll need to talk to some people individually, but we're looking essentially at the option to add an additional site-wide moderator or two. I'll also be talking to a couple of people about getting into the site for some glitch clean-up, and perhaps more.

It will take a few days to follow up on this, but I'll continue to post updates as they come down the pike.

Keep in mind we're not talking about major overhauls to the site, but hopefully the final outcome here will be quicker response time for all moderated content, and a glitch-free site...which, I'm sure would be a relief to many of us.

Stay tuned.

Noice to hear! Glad Sean is back. ;)
Permalink
| August 12, 2017, 12:08 am
Great news, I'm as happy as Larry.
Permalink
| August 12, 2017, 8:10 am
 Group admin 
Just another quick update here...

I've sent out communications with a few select individuals and spoken with Sean about them. I'm currently waiting to hear back as to whether or not they're interested in helping out. (Some have already responded.)

Next step will be to pass along the contact info to Sean of the members interested. He can then get them set up and we're off and running.

Thanks for your patience, gang.
Permalink
| August 13, 2017, 8:22 am
Quoting Mark Kelso
Just another quick update here...

I've sent out communications with a few select individuals and spoken with Sean about them. I'm currently waiting to hear back as to whether or not they're interested in helping out. (Some have already responded.)

Next step will be to pass along the contact info to Sean of the members interested. He can then get them set up and we're off and running.

Thanks for your patience, gang.

Thank you, Mark! Glad someone's stayed!
Permalink
| August 13, 2017, 8:27 am
Quoting Mark Kelso
Just another quick update here...

I've sent out communications with a few select individuals and spoken with Sean about them. I'm currently waiting to hear back as to whether or not they're interested in helping out. (Some have already responded.)

Next step will be to pass along the contact info to Sean of the members interested. He can then get them set up and we're off and running.

Thanks for your patience, gang.

Thank you! :)
Permalink
| August 13, 2017, 8:32 am
Quoting Mark Kelso
Just another quick update here...

I've sent out communications with a few select individuals and spoken with Sean about them. I'm currently waiting to hear back as to whether or not they're interested in helping out. (Some have already responded.)

Next step will be to pass along the contact info to Sean of the members interested. He can then get them set up and we're off and running.

Thanks for your patience, gang.

Perfect!
Thank you for keeping us updated, Mark!
--Blast--
Permalink
| August 13, 2017, 8:39 am
A round of applause for Mark, I think!
Permalink
| August 13, 2017, 9:37 am
Quoting James Douglas
A round of applause for Mark, I think!

Agree 100%! ;) Thank you so much Mark!
Permalink
| August 13, 2017, 11:04 am
Quoting James Douglas
A round of applause for Mark, I think!

Indeed! -engages in a lengthy standing ovation- Thanks Mark!
Permalink
| August 15, 2017, 2:09 pm
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